How do you think schools should punish children?

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

A lot of ‘school refusal’ and problems in education is associated with poor behaviour from other pupils on here. Yet whenever a poster’s child is reprimanded they seem outraged and feel the teacher is picking on their DC for no reason. They often think the (perfectly reasonable sounding) punishment is too harsh, or their child should’ve had more warnings.

So I’m interested in how you think schools should actually discipline pupils, taking into account this also means your own DC?

I am feeling really upset reading this.

My well behaved, adopted, SEN, DC had negative experiences at school due to the relentless sly digs from the perfect children of perfect parents like many posting on here with no tolerance.

Those kids contributed to my DC's breakdown, but with a different child it could have led them to lash out.

Your children aren't as kind as you may like to think.

That’s the point though if schools where on top of it your lovely child wouldn’t have been allowed to be bullied by arseholes.

I don’t care why a child is an arsehole. Other children shouldn’t be bullied, hurt or have their learning disrupted.

Sorry I don’t quite understand your post but from what I can see you think other people’s children owe it to your son to be a good influence on him even if they’re disrupted themselves?

I teach in a RI school that has previously spent a long time in special measures. We are used to off roll from more popular academies and have many children who have SEN needs or who struggle to regulate their behaviour.

I taught four lessons today and bar having to prompt the odd child to engage more enthusiastically or to focus I didn’t have any behaviour issues. I am experienced and have a good relationship with the students who consequently work well for me. Some still fail but most do well and I use very few sanctions beyond the usual ones if students are late, for example.

Schools need more funding, a more interesting and more flexible curriculum offer, to retain old hands and much much better SEND provision. That would sort so much. Senior teams tying themselves in knots to evidence progress while micro managing staff is to the detriment of all.

More funding for assessments, interventions, special schools, PRUs, home support.

Pushing kids off so they become someone else's problem kicks issues down the line to become bigger issues later.

A child kicking off because they can't access the lesson, or a problematic homelife, needs intervention not just expulsion.

Yes of course the other pupils need to be kept safe and allowed to learn, but so do these youngsters. You must put the safety net in place too.

This. Exactly this.

Ideally every child deserves an education that caters for them to stretch their level and bring them to do their best possible in a range of subjects.
That doesn't matter if they're getting easily six A* at A level or not going to achieve any GCSEs.

But that's ideal. That is not ever going to be achieved.

All deserve the equal chance to do their best. But not all behaviours are equal.

The child who wants to get on and work hard, may well not achieve their best because the teacher is dealing with disruption from other children who don't want to learn. Because the teacher is occupied with trying to get them to do some work, they don't have chance to sit down with the other child and talk them through some additional work.
The child who is disrupting the class is unlikely to have their education effected by the child who wants to work.

That is why people get frustrated.

There needs to be better SEN care for schools, and that includes in special schools having the potential for pupils to gain the qualifications they are capable of getting.
There also needs to be places where the children who need extension work can get it.
And there needs to be quiet environments so the children who struggle to concentrate can get on without distractions.
Plus children who quietly sit at the back doing okay, but not bad enough to get extra help, or well enough to feel they're flying to be encouraged to do their best too and feel that they are important too.

We should be valuing education and encouraging all children to do their best. And part of that is having respect for the teacher, and the school regulations, to allow lessons to be taught without disruption.

Oh come on, you must all have it wrong, everyone knows all these kids need is a very strict uniform policy and all these behaviour issues go away. We read about it all the time in the press, from the MATs and on here by lots of posters.......

(Please note the sarcasm)

I went to school in a different country and we didn't have detention at all as a concept. Disruptive kids were told to leave class, initially to stand in the hallway. If they didn't comply with that either, their parents would be called to pick them up if they were younger than 12 or so, otherwise it was up to them where they went and the school didn't care as long as they were out of class and the disruption was over. If bad behaviour persisted, they could be kicked out of school permanently. The individual needs of the disruptive kids were not considered- the priority was the class as a group.

We also a "behaviour grade" every term, it started at 10 and you'd get points deducted for bad behaviour. If your behaviour grade went under a certain number you would have to repeat the entire school year. Also, there were careers you weren't able to pursue with less than 10 in behaviour .e.g. Medicine because you had to disclose your school behaviour record at entry exams for university.

I'm not saying I endorse this system or that I even think it was any good. It was brutal in many ways, and I'm sure it's changed since I was a child. Was it effective? I have to say it was, at least if we're talking about behaviour towards teachers and during class. I went to a rough school in a rough area and I'd never witnessed or heard of kids being disrespectful to teachers, or disrupting class loudly, before I came to the UK and made friends amongst teachers here.

People will always want harsh punishments for all the other kids and lighter ones/none for their own. I don’t trust anyone who says otherwise.

One of my sons also has a similar set of accommodations. They are provided as part of his EHCP. Now that his needs are being met (needs, not wants, as determined by qualified professionals such as educational psychologists and occupational therapists) he is a transformed child. Violent outbursts virtually eliminated now that he has the proper support in a mainstream setting. He is not disrupting the education of others any more. He is learning strategies ro self regulate with the support of his 1:1. Prior to this we had frequent violent outbursts, internal and fixed term exclusions and he spent most time hiding in the school toilets or in the corridor.
Most of the extra provisions are covered by the "higher needs" funding and other children who don't have an EHCP also sometimes benefit from his 1:1 supporting them too. It is not taking away from the school budget. All this is still costing the local authority less money than sending him to a special school. In my area there are no state funded special schools for academically able children with special educational needs, so literally nowhere else to send him anyway. He has friends and is a part of the school community.
If a child had a physical disability such as needing to use a wheelchair I hope we would all expect proper accommodations such as step free access and wide enough doorways to be made. Whilst they may seem like rewards to those who haven't learned about hidden disabilities, some of the accommodations on that list are equally important disability adjustments. Prevention of extreme behaviours by finding out and meeting a child's needs is cheaper, more effective and has better outcomes for everyone in the long term. You can't punish a child into being able to do something they are not capable of. To finish I quote Yvonne Newbold. "Stay curious. Be kind".

By rethinking education entirely. Properly identifying SEN providing appropriate education and support for these children. Scrapping the current curriculum and bringing in one hat is fit for purpose in the 21st century. Actually understanding child psychology and development.

If the measures in my post were taken then I doubt there would be the need to punish children....

In my experience the opposite is true. One example of this is a child who is non verbal, doubly incontinent and peg fed with the understanding of an 18 month old is going to be in my granddaughter’s class next September. She has a EHCP but her parents would like her to attend main stream school. If they can’t employ a TA who is happy to manage peg feeding etc then the class teacher will be doing this. This situation is not particularly exceptional in this three form entry primary school in the South West . How on earth can this be reasonable ?

What would that curriculum be?

Is that really allowed to happen 😢

It isn't just “rough children” though. It is also children from very privileged backgrounds with parents who challenge every decision. I’d say we deal more with the latter than children from disadvantaged backgrounds or “rough” as you say.

I agree though, more children should simply be sent home if they refuse to comply with school rules. We have some students who run away from staff all day every day refusing to attend lessons. It isn’t safe for them to be in the building when they’re so defiant. If it became an inconvenience for the parents they may sanction them more.

I think it's parenting, ultra processed foods, screens and mollycoddling wrecking our kids. Alot of parents aren't there - parents are working long hours, cooking rubbish non nutritious food, little attention given, or parents trying to control every situation. The screens and ultra processed food changes their brains, it's like kids are permanently hyper. I helped in my kids school for a day trip and the behaviour was absolutely shocking. About 70% of the class could not sit and listen to the rules, could not take care of their own belongings, could not participate without silly behaviour. Then the next day some of these kids get a reward certificate 🤷‍♀️ I do think children should have warnings and be not earn privileges, exclusion should be a thing if a child is continually disrupting education. The education system should be doing alot more on life skills and play though, than table work all day. Parents are to blame. The parents I know who have rules, boundaries and consequences have wonderful children. The ones that don't, have little sh*ts.

@MaryMaryVeryContrary the Finnish curriculum would be a good starting point. But generally the curriculum needs to be far more child centred and far less about what adults think they should learn.

@Combattingthemoaners

I count pupil not behaving well as rough. I have seen so many of them. They can ruin a class in no time.

Absolutely agree with this.
We 'helicopter parent' because the media feeds us stories about what will happen if we do not. And this anxiety rubs off onto our children. By doing this we teach them that the world is scary and they should be on high alert. I'm as guilty of this as anyone.

Truly self confident children will usually behave better, as they are not trying to impress anyone, or prove anything, and their harshest judge is themself, they set themself goals which are important to them and they work to acheive them.

In our village there are 2 primary schools. 1 is very strict, results focused, reportedly do very little about bullying and tell children to 'toughen up' if they report it.

The other puts a really strong focus on the 'whole child', with children learning to swim, garden, drama, music, yoga and focus on kindness with no tolerance of bullying.

I lead a Brownies group, and I can tell almost immediately which school each girl comes from. Ones from the first school are hyper, giggly, struggle to work with other children in a collaborative way, argue lots and are reluctant to take 'safe risks' like climbing,rafting etc.

The 2nd group communicate calmly, make good eye contact, can focus, work well in a team and have courage to take risks.

When it came time to pick a school for mine, the choice was clear.

I think part of the issue is that we push children into academic study too early, expecting them to focus for long periods when their brains just aren't ready. Schools should start with building up the skills to learn, to think, to 'be brave' 'be kind'. And yes, these skills should obviously be taught at home too.

@Possiblyfamous

That's ridiculous!

@Bushmillsbabe

But you can't always choose your child's school.

Our local school claims all such stuff and has a feelings person and gardening guy for those needing time and support. Failed ofstead and half the kids end up on the Facebook pages as trashing stuff and stealing. Nits running rampant, parents always late. But it has the right ethos

I agree and surely this is doing a disservice to the child who needs more input. Is there a reason why?