Contempt for Grammar Schools

[PencilMom]

Yesterday’s thread regarding the exclusion of private schooled children from state grammar schools has really highlighted that many people dislike grammar schools (and even more so private schools and the parents who can afford it).

AIBU for completely not understanding where the contempt stems from? There is dislike of the parents who explore this as an option for their children (many are characterised as elitist), the parents who can afford tutoring (which in many cases focuses on becoming accustomed to the test format), the children who go to grammars, I have even seen teachers accused of choosing the easy route.
There is not nearly as much dislike of sporting schools, creative arts or technical schools. If there is a school which caters to a child’s particular strengths or interests, why is that considered bad. Where possible all counties/cities should have a varied range of focused schools.

Please explain why you are opposed to or support grammar schools?
(I totally understand that the 11+ / selective tests has a negative undertone for those who “fail” — but is that not on the parents/primary schools to positively frame the experience regardless of their child’s score).

I think DM had a similar experience

Absolutely this.

And the 'English as a second language' thing, I'll just say again that my kids' grammar has far, far above (nearly three times) the county average Black, Asian and minority race families.

Being frank, the issue is not the v small number of households where parents really can’t help, it is the fact that a lot of parents don’t want to help (time, prioritising money for tutor/revisions and forgo a holiday, insist your child works when they want to watch a screen etc.

Right, agreed. Again though this means that grammar schools are not about levelling the playing field or helping bright children they are about providing an option for parents willing to enter the tutoring arms race required to secure them.

I am not even anti grammar school and my son will sit the test for the local super selective. I just can't bear the dishonesty around who they advantage.

Erm because they’re probably the families who DO have a good degree of English and have come here with visas as key professionals.

Im talking about the families of, for example, Ukrainian refugees. Surely that’s not difficult to understand?

Well, if we accept this as true, that's surely an argument in favour of comprehensive education? Because children aren't ever responsible for the failings of their parents, and if they are disadvantaged at home, they should at least have equal opportunities in school.

I appreciate your honesty and absolutely don't blame you for doing what is best for your child within the system that exists. It is the system that is at fault, rather than the individual parents that are within it.

Except the kids of parents who aren't religious of course or can't bring themselevs to pretend to be for a few years ....

My children 'failed' to get inot the excellent local church school with results on a par with the grammer because I'm an atheist.

Are you saying Ukrainians and refugee populations don't value education?

I've not found that at all (I only have experience of the London super selective grammars in one borough). People come from miles and miles and miles. I am astounded every year by the distances people come, many from way,way North out of London, Wembley, Watford etc. I am often there on the day of the exams and by far the highest proportion of people in the queue (I of course can't tell whether the kid ended up getting in) are Asian famillies - many, many are parents that speak very little English and the child translates. They do not come across as key professionals at all. I sometimes ask them, how will you get to this school if you get a place and they say they will move.

How on earth did you deduce that??

My comment was that if English isn’t your first language it’s hard to help your child work through the papers. If on top of that you’re not exactly financially flush plus you don’t especially understand the UK education system your child is automatically at a bigger disadvantage in beating the system that is there.

Are you just a troll?

The question shouldn't be about which groups do or don't value education. It's impossible to generalise.

The question should be about whether all parents value education equally. Personally, I don't think they do.

If we accept that not all parents value education equally, any system that significantly favours children with higher levels of parental engagement is inherently unfair.

Of course, we will never be able to eliminate that advantage entirely, but we can seek to minimise it. Selective state education does the opposite - it just widens the gap.

So you're admitting you're a massive snob who is gaming the system to keep your precious kids away from the oiks on the cheap?

This is why we need to abolish grammars.

My daughter goes to a grammar school, we tutored (1 hr per week in year 5, group lesson £18, which I understand is still a luxury out of reach for many). DD is bright and I do think she would have passed without the prep sessions. But when going up against hundreds of children who have prepared via prep school for years we wanted to find the balance between giving her the best chance and making her pass when she may not be suited to the school.

Im opposed to grammar schools on paper and we live in the catchment for an Ofsted outstanding comp with great results. But it is run like a military academy and I hated the whole ethos of it when we visited and I knew it wouldn’t be right for DD. The grammar is much more chilled out and I did what was right for my child.

When DS went to secondary school we didn’t live in this area and he did very well at the local comprehensive, but it wasn’t an academised rule factory with draconian punishments.

@ShaunaSadeki Interesting perspectives there. My grammar school was some sort of dystopian Victorian nightmare which was completely inappropriate for the sort of person I am. A lot of parents ignore that issue if the school is considered good/outstanding.

I agree with you on the brutal disciplinary approach most schools take these days. Katharine Birbalsingh makes me sick.

If wanting my DC to go to school with well
behaved, polite and hard working kids with involved parents makes me a snob then I guess I am one.

Yup.

My kids went to the local comprehensive and got a superb education. Why should taxpayers money be used to prop up a system that provides your kids with an elitist education that most people can't access?

Isn't that the same as all the other parents who chose to send their kids to a comp that isn't their nearest because the one further away has better Ofsted score, or better sports, or better drama, or even non academic things like on a better bus route, or on the commute so the parent can drop them off etc. Why is choosing a secondary school by one criteria so much worse than choosing on all the other criteria??

I'm not anti-choice, that's all fine with me.

Grammars, however, are patently unfair and elitist uses of taxpayers money that protect the privilege of the already well off, and fail just about everyone else.

The ethnic demographic of our grammar doesn’t reflect the local area as a significant amount of places go to out of catchment children who are predominantly Pakistani heritage.
If you are wanting white m/c schooling then you go down the c of e high school route - out of town so parents need to afford expensive bus fare and be on the ball to sign in for weekly church attendance yr 4 and 5.
Out of interest I’ve checked fsm percentages and state grammar is only slightly lower so it’s not a case children from economically deprived backgrounds are not getting in. Grammar is 9.7%, C of E 12.4%, Catholic 13.6%,in town comprehensive 15.3%, next nearest rural comprehensive 10.8%.

Yup.

My kids went to the local comprehensive and got a superb education. Why should taxpayers money be used to prop up a system that provides your kids with an elitist education that most people can't access?

@PrimitivePerson

You'll not get an actual answer to your question. She skirts around them because she has no response. Perhaps a session with a tutor would help her prepare to answer questions concisely. However, she'd make a fabulous MP.

@MademoiselleRose we all do. You’re not unique. Some of us don’t have a grammar school here. Most of us cannot afford £15-20k a year on school fees. We have to take a chance and hope we’ve brought our children up well enough to be the things you’ve spoken about. My son has friends from all backgrounds, some well off, some from single parent families living in social housing. For him he’s learning how to get on with kids from all backgrounds and that’s a positive, hopefully standing him in good stead later in life.

I know plenty of parents who have " found religion" a couple of years before their kids were due to start high school if you can beat them join them.

I wanted my dc to go to school with kids from a wide range of backgrounds because I believed that it was important for her to develop the kind of empathy and understanding that only comes from actually getting to know people outside of your own bubble.

I guess we all want different things for our kids.

Different demographics value education differently, as stated previously white working class boys do badly in school in this country.

Most grammars are predominantly from Asian demographics these days.