Contempt for Grammar Schools

[PencilMom]

Yesterday’s thread regarding the exclusion of private schooled children from state grammar schools has really highlighted that many people dislike grammar schools (and even more so private schools and the parents who can afford it).

AIBU for completely not understanding where the contempt stems from? There is dislike of the parents who explore this as an option for their children (many are characterised as elitist), the parents who can afford tutoring (which in many cases focuses on becoming accustomed to the test format), the children who go to grammars, I have even seen teachers accused of choosing the easy route.
There is not nearly as much dislike of sporting schools, creative arts or technical schools. If there is a school which caters to a child’s particular strengths or interests, why is that considered bad. Where possible all counties/cities should have a varied range of focused schools.

Please explain why you are opposed to or support grammar schools?
(I totally understand that the 11+ / selective tests has a negative undertone for those who “fail” — but is that not on the parents/primary schools to positively frame the experience regardless of their child’s score).

@CurlewKate I think it’s sad that many ‘naice’ m/c families just don’t want their children mixing with kids off a council estate or somewhere with a poor reputation. The chances of that happening will be tiny in a grammar school hence prep schooled kids moving on to state grammars at 11.
There’s this weird fear on MN of poor people, whether it be asking about nice areas to move to or rough aka ‘working class’ schools to avoid. Whole areas of cities are written off because they don’t have the requisite number of artisan bakeries and cutesy coffee shops. I’ve seen it happen with my home city, it’s like no one decent actually lives anywhere else but certain parts of town, the rest are almost ghettos.

Could it possibly be because a lot of this demographic are ND. Equally high intelligence (academic, sport, music or other area or intelligence) sets you apart and if it's your only topic of conversation it will come over as bragging. It's important these children learn social skills and equally learn how to fail in life while they're young.

100%.

@Justrelax youre right. You went to a shitty comprehensive. It’s a good job they aren’t all like that one.

wouldn’t it be nicer if your shitty comprehensive mirrored some of the better comprehensives than giving up on the kids there because all the focus is on the local grammar?

Yes, some of it could certainly be linked to neurodivergence. Clearly, this can create social challenges for children of all academic abilities, and all schools need to be providing appropriate support for children in this situation/teaching other kids to be more accepting and understanding etc. Absolutely agree that these kids need to learn social skills and how to fail etc when young.

But that is a separate issue imo. Lots of kids are very academic without being ND and lots of kids are ND without being very academic.

Actually there was no local grammar in my area so your assumption is wrong.

My experience as a bright kid in a mixed school is fairly typical.

And yet I can tell you our experience of a comprehensive education for our children couldnt be further from that.

I think saying experience can mixed is fair - typical is not.

Also I made no assumptions at all about your local school options - my response was a general comment.

Of course there are bright disadvantaged children! And if their parents wants to apply to grammars and are willing to help them put in the work they would get in.

Then it is more about the motivation to get your child to work for hours and hours and less about the money! As you say, crazy amount of work. And as you say, lots past papers are available.

Sure but what I am saying is that there is not even close to a level playing field so you won't get the brightest children at the grammar school just the ones with the most motivated parents. It depends whether you think that's a desirable outcome.

The last couple of posts are completely missing the point about bright disadvantaged kids. You’re putting the motivation on the parents. The child can be as motivated as you like but their home situation potentially isnt going to get them through those exams alone in most cases. No computer at home? No printer? No one to take a ten year old to the library to access a computer? No one to buy them books from Amazon? Etc etc.

It shouldn’t need that much effort though and practice to make sure they pass. They should be able to pass with no practice!! That’s the point.

I do agree that the test should be less tutorable. But I think more grammar schools and more in-school intelligence tests to find the brightest kids and stream them in that direction would be ideal.

And what if their parents are working all hours to make ends meet? Or stretched to absolute breaking point by caring for a disabled family member? Do you think they can just drop everything to help their dc "put the work in"?

And what about the bright, disadvantaged children whose parents are not willing to help? Or the ones who don't have the confidence or the knowledge/skills to help? Do they not deserve a chance?

Some people are so caught up in their own privilege that they apparently have no idea of the challenges that many kids face.

It is not a level playing field. Stop pretending that it is.

I agree
I say this as someone who has two dds who attended a grammar school.

@MademoiselleRose and if the parent isn’t able to help the disadvantaged child, if they don’t understand the system, don’t understand the papers, can’t afford the resources, no quiet space for the child to learn, not aspirational for their child how will that child get into grammar school?

The school could partner with local grammars and private schools and utilise their 6th formers doing their DofEs as volunteers to support these children. I suggested it earlier.

And what if their parents are working all hours to make ends meet? Or stretched to absolute breaking point by caring for a disabled family member? Do you think they can just drop everything to help their dc "put the work in"?

Stereotyping much. These parents exist in all walks of life.

So why do you think that children with richer parents are more likely to get into grammar schools if parental input is the same across demographics?

Yes we’ve also forgotten English not being a first language for some families. How are those parents supposed to help their child ace SPAG tests when they may not have a strong grasp of English themselves but their child has picked it up like a sponge.

I don’t care how much money my kids school friends have. I care about the fact that they have parents who insist they do their homework (and check the quality of it), children who want to learn and have been thought not to interrupt teachers, parents who respect teachers, parents who will consider it their job to fix their childs behaviour etc.
You tend to find these in all grammars. More of a gamble in state.

They do indeed, but where there is money, the parents can compensate for their own lack of time by paying for a tutor or similar to support their kids instead. Where there is no money, this is not an option. Surely you can see the difference?

Grammars are state. In most cases, anyway. This thread isn't about the independent schools that call themselves grammars.

How does that account for the overwhelming migrant majority you find in grammar schools then?

FFS English isn’t my first language, I moved here when I was 30. I’m still capable to find online mock tests and have them work on Atom.

Being frank, the issue is not the v small number of households where parents really can’t help, it is the fact that a lot of parents don’t want to help (time, prioritising money for tutor/revisions and forgo a holiday, insist your child works when they want to watch a screen etc).