Is this a toxic work situation?

[Lorettda]

I work in an insurance company where its quite client-focused and intense sometimes. My boss can be the loveliest boss ever to those who are loyal and hardworking. She buys thank you gifts, heaps praise, shows concern and really looks out for team members etc etc

However, it's a two sided coin and those who ever get on the wrong side of her or fall short of her high standards, know about it. Several people have been fired on her watch due to perceived incompetence or bad attitude (HR rep in tow so presumably done in line with law). By all accounts the people in question weren't great performers so it was justified but there always seems to be a build up then a showdown at the end followed by scathing glassdoor reviews from people who felt treated unfairly.

I'd always admired her no nonsense approach. We entered company at a similar time 10 years ago and while she rose and rose to the top, I had a more modest rise but still been doing well. She made me privy to some of the goings on and once told me she could 'finish' someone who'd dared to complain about her methods (she meant fire, not kill obviously). She now has a lot of hire and fire power.

Recently had some personal difficulties going on in the background and she's been sympathetic but after a few recent misunderstandings during remote working she unexpectedly proceeded to question my entire commitment to the company. It felt heavy handed and obviously over the years I've seen her do this before with others she's deemed not good enough and I'm shitting myself.

Her tone also becomes 'off' on Teams (were remote four days a week) and messages that are usually peppered with niceties become curt and short.

I'm worried I've somehow made it onto her blacklist. Have been wracking my brains for anything I've done that might be perceived in bad light and thinking of ways to demonstrate more 'loyalty', working several hours this weekend to get ahead.

I haven't done anything terrible that I can think of but I'm probably not quite meeting the very high standards right now perhaps. Although all work is getting done, no complaints, I just can't go super above and beyond in the way I could in past due to current personal circumstances (won't elaborate- too outing)

The whole thing feels like I'm in an abusive relationship sometimes tbh, feeling of dread, treading on eggshells, wondering if I said/ did wrong thing but then if she's her nice self again, it all melts away. Until it starts again. Then this ridiculous sense of needing to prove my worth/ loyalty to the company to win her over again and be thrown some praise.

I've also noticed a couple of other team members who seem to almost fawn over her.

Is this toxic?

Before anyone suggest HR, they're in cahoots with her and probs also fear her so that's pointless. It's either keep things sweet with her or leave. I'm looking into other opportunities in case but not so easy to just leave for various reasons.

The Elephant File. Like another poster suggested, keep records - make sure any misunderstandings are fully detailed, unfair correspondence detailed. Saved my hide when I had to leave a job. Fully documented unfair / borderline illegal manager behaviour 👍

>Several people have been fired on her watch due to perceived incompetence or bad attitude (HR rep in tow so presumably done in line with law). By all accounts the people in question weren't great performers so it was justified

>I'm probably not quite meeting the very high standards right now perhaps.

OK. Well, take out 'probably, 'quite' and 'perhaps' and that's the answer, isn't it? You're about to be 'let go'. Plan accordingly.

You can never completely trust people like this. One minute they will be your best friend and next throw you under the bus with no remorse. You know it, you've seen it, you won't be any different once she decides it's your time to go. Xx

I had a similiar female manager, really just an awful bully ultimately. One day she turned on me and I reminded her that she needed me as the only fully qualified member of staff which allowed the business to continue....then I left a few months later and got a better job and blocked her ! Your one will probably turn at some point so I would look for something else just in case.

I actually felt fear welling up just reading your post. I had a boss like that a few years back and it was hell. She would control the office by ostracising anyone who displeased her for whatever reason, and others were so keen to avoid being next on the list that they would go along with it and be overly nice to her. Just reading about your experience put me back there for a moment. Protect yourself, people like that are not worth sacrificing your mental wellbeing for. People like that don’t change. I wish you luck and hope you get something sorted x

Definitely toxic. Definitely get out of there ASAP
HR won’t help

We had a similar toxic boss. HR did nothing but support her. Then the team under her wrote with notice that they would down tools until she stood down. Then HR listened. It took almost 12 months.

Much easier to leave and find a workplace that appreciates their staff. Good luck.

I used to work for someone like those. All was fine while you were basking in the glow of approval, but anyone who fell under the spotlight of disapproval never got out of it. I saw this happen to several people until one day, it happened to me too. Looking back he was an arrogant arsehole who enjoyed the power, but it was very hurtful and awful at the time.

I would start looking around OP. Even if things level out, you'll be on eggshells trying to 'prove your commitment' forevermore.

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I’ve worked with a narcissistic boss like this before - there’s no point trying to reason with them or trying to get back in their good books as there’s often no logic to their behaviour. It might be worth having a chat with a friendly employment lawyer to know what your rights are in case things escalate. Getting out if you can seems the best option! And remember, you’re very likely not doing anything wrong and competent at your job.

I had a boss who sounds similar to this. I was wary over the years as had seen the way she turned on people and pushed them out of the organisation. Usually by questioning their ability to do the job. As you've witnessed it was a complete 180, and very subtle. This boss was charming and as a pp has mentioned would 'love bomb' and then scapegoat. It happened to pretty much everyone who reached a certain level of seniority or usefulness.

My advice would be to not try and win her back by working harder or demonstrating your commitment. It won't have the outcome you want and you will drain yourself trying to regain her approval. Accept it's likely she will now try to bully you out by undermining your confidence and questioning (publically) your ability to do the job. I would conserve your energy and line up your exit plan.

I'm aware this sounds bleak but you can't change the way this woman operates, I won't speculate on the pathology that makes her behave this way but it will be deeply ingrained. You don't have to accept the behaviour and certainly don't have to accept the doubt she is sewing within you and will be sewing with your colleagues about you.

I'm sorry, this is a really toxic situation to be in. Do you have a professional support network, ie a mentor, ex colleagues etc you can draw on?

Well the alternative is to leave. Some people strangely prefer straight talking and high performers.
Maybe you do not value these qualities but the boss does.

@Prouddoggieparent how can you possibly draw that conclusion from the information given by OP? OP is already drifting into her authoritarian manager's shit list, and your suggestion is to confront the manager, and to challenge her behaviour, her management style and its appropriateness (cos "high performers" value straight talk). That's the fast track to placement on a bad faith performance improvement plan to single OP out, isolate her, and create pressure to leave.

I agree that the OP should consider leaving this organisation though, as the options are that or to put up and shut up and hope the beady eye falls on to someone else who commits a graver sin sometime soon.

By the way I value straight talk and am a successful professional in a large organisation. What OP is describing though is really just an abuse of power. It isn't a legitimate management style - and it is a common belief amongst senior work place bullies that they are merely driving high standards, hence justified in their actions as (subjectively) they see it is in the bests interests of the organisation (eg the defences of Dominic Raab to allegations of civil servant bullying).

Go in do your work to your best ability & don't let her intimidate you. If you're doing your job then she can't fire you. Keep all interactions with her recorded & anything you need to request or query do it via email so there's a paperchain as evidence. If she starts being 'off' with you request a meeting with her & ask outright what the issue is. You shouldn't have to tiptoe around your boss to stay in her good books. Explain the personal issues you're having & that you can't go above & beyond at work, you will work to the terms of your contract & if she has any problems with you at all to discuss them with you as they arise so you can sort them out between you both. Don't le her bully you. Also don't be afraid to go to HR, even if you feel they are wary of her too, they have a job to do & need to be doing what's right not what she wants them to do.

I am not disputing it is an abuse of power, merely suggesting that if there is a direct question of where am I failing it may illicit some clarity. If the boss says so and so said this it gives an opportunity to correct the misinformation or action.
Whether we agree with the style or not is out of our control, we just have to manage it.
Sometimes we need to put up with it or walk out.

An update for anyone who might be interested.

My gut instinct was right. I'd made it onto the bad books and last week I was threatened with performance management in my current role or move to a lesser role. They also said they'd help me find another role if I wanted to so basically they want me out.

I've not had extensive detail on all the things I've done wrong and it feels like this went from 0 to 100 very quickly. I'm desperately looking for other roles at this point

Your boss sounds really really similar to a boss I had in my previous company. Basically as long as I was a 'good girl' and super loyal, everything was fine. I watched other people crash and burn and assumed that it must be because they were no good at their job. What a mistake I made. At some point the sword fell on me as it were, and she gaslit me, said I'd performed badly and manipulated her, and I had to leave (managed to get a settlement). Basically because she was super professional, wonderful at her job and with clients, and personally very charismatic, I didn't realise that she was actually almost a narcissist and divided people in to worships me/doesn't worship me, with the latter category getting very short shrift. Get a good reference from someone else in the company, go above her head, get your ducks lined up and leave. It will only get worse.. hopefully you can find a better opportunity elsewhere or in another department.

@Lorettda I’d still try to clear up the issue (misunderstanding with other colleague who’s since dropped you in it) but nobody wants to feel like that about work so definitely look for something else … what a shame though.

Yes this sounds very familiar. I should have known it would be my turn at some point

Sorry to hear this- it all sound very unfair.

You mentioned previously that you’ve struggled to work out what you were doing wrong and they’ve been vague about it when proposing a PIP- if it looks like you’re leaving anyway maybe consider speaking to a solicitor.

Don’t assume everything is above board legally just because she does this often. Often people just don’t fight it and decide to leave.

The ACAS standard for putting people on PIPs is that they should have been provided with feedback and goals that they have failed to meet prior to this step.

Some solicitors do no win no fee (Landau Law do) and speak to ACAS. Just mentioning ACAS is sometimes enough for employers to crap themselves and scale it back.

I think the standard route under legal guidance is to submit a grievance to them, let it stew for a few days then send your solicitor in to suggest a discussion about severance. If you have to leave, pushing for a severance would be better.

Although not your job to do it necessarily, it sounds like she needs the short, sharp shock of someone fighting her on how she treats employees.

Good luck!

Thanks for the advice, I think the company has already had a high severance bill with some of the other people they've got rid of on a whim so I may look into this more. They've obviously been happy to pay out as they know they wouldn't win at tribunal

100% Good advice!

I wanted to add, be really really kind to yourself at this time, don't underestimate the blow it is to your sense of wellbeing and try to do nice things for yourself, whatever it takes to be in a calm place to take decisions. Hopefully you are not as externally validated as me but I felt really low when this happened, 6 years on I still shudder to think of that period, and it was only by reminding myself that it was not about me but about her and the toxic culture which the company allowed her to create, as well as several other colleagues calling me in confidence afterwards saying the same thing was happening to them and what should they do, that made me understand that it was just the way they did things. You will move on to somewhere where you are properly valued.

Thank you need to read this today. It's so hard at mo. I've had to book a therapist/ career coach to chat to today to try and get an external perspective and decide what's best to do

Definitely agree with being kind to yourself. You have nothing to reproach yourself, you're a victim of their nasty game.

It seems to be the luck of the draw as regards organisations that turn a blind eye to toxic behaviours versus those that actively endorse behaviours that align to corporate values. By doing the latter it gives employees the ability to judge performance of their leaders and call them out on bad behaviour.

Trouble is in a lot of cases the behaviour is pernicious and insidious, difficult to detect and call out. Going through the performance management process is then a painful demoralising process so the quicker you can break yourself free and get back to safety, the better. It will eventually seem like a distant nightmare but at the moment take it day by day and keep making plans for your future, which doesn't include the manager or the company. Their loss!

they do get their comeuppance , it won't happen overnight. Even those who appear to "walk on water" because they bring in profit or other measures of corporate success, eventually fall on their sword.