School trip tragedy - prosecutors trying to overturn not guilty verdict of teachers

[Fairydustandsparklylights]

It was a horrendous tragedy where a beautiful child lost her life. Parents want the teachers to be found guilty as they want / need someone to blame to try and come to terms with what happened.

Looking after other people’s children is a huge responsibility and not a “freebie” holiday. As a teacher, I refuse to do trips and I have many problems at work because of it. Parents complain of a lack of residential trips. This accident now means that 3 teachers have been dragged through court and their personal lives (and their children’s lives) destroyed in the process.

link here https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13475399/amp/French-prosecutors-begin-fight-overturn-decision-clear-three-British-teachers-manslaughter-Jessica-Lawson-12-drowned-lake-school-trip.html

How can they be held responsible for a pontoon collapsing? Why do parents think that the teachers are having a jolly when supervising many teenagers abroad? If the child was with her parents when it happened, they wouldn’t have been prosecuted for manslaughter. Why are teachers different?

Aibu to say that school trips should be banned completely? This way parents can be the ones to take their children for different experiences. Many would miss out but this is the only way to ensure this doesn’t happen again.

Awful tragedy. I don't know the story, but assuming the teachers were not guilty, then they should not be dragged over coals again.

But YABU to say school trips should be banned. Like many other underprivileged kids, I wouldn't have had the chance to do a lot of things, including going abroad but even just days out in different parts of the country, if schools were not able to take kids out. Accidents can unfortunately happen whether parents or teachers are in charge.

Awful tragedy and I totally agree. The teachers didn't do anything wrong. It's a horrific thing. I think the pontoon company may hold some responsibility or the lifeguard but there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest the teachers were at fault.

They shouldn’t have been prosecuted to begin with IMO.

Have you ever heard of a situation in which a child passes away in a drowning accident (lake / pontoon collapsing / pool) where parents are prosecuted for manslaughter? So why are the teachers any different?

It would impact under privileged children and they will ultimately lose out. However, why should teachers risk their freedom / livelihoods / personal lives and the impact it has on their own families and children? Accidents happen, sad but true.

Totally, totally agree with you.

I suspect they proceeded against teachers on the basis that they should have carried out risk assessments for school trips. However as you say they were acquitted.

I would have thought that the owners of the lake would be liable if anyone for not ensuring the pontoon didn't flip

I remember the terrible Lands End case over here years back because the headteacher there had been a teacher of mine and was the nicest bloke you could have ever known. It broke him and he left the profession.

This is a large part of the reason why I now refuse to take school trips abroad.

What a sad story. I’m sure the teachers were devastated. Prosecuting them isn’t going to do any good and I can’t see that they did anything wrong at all, it’s just an awful tragedy.

I remember that too @Spirallingdownwards

Totally agree with you. Im not a teacher but I know if I was I would refuse to do these trips.

If parents want their children to go on the trips, they will have to come and supervise their children

I teach outdoor education and I’m the lead of learning outside the classroom in my school. I obviously see huge benefits in lotc. I would not want to see them banned.

Risk assessments are there to reduce risk, but risk will always be there. It’s important to reduce it as much as possible, but you can’t make it disappear

Yes I was just going to say that about risk assessments, they dont remove risk, just put in place plans to mitigate risk.

Is the lack of a risk assessment really what would lead to someone being prosecuted for manslaughter though? Do parents do risk assessments each time they do an activity?

An awful tragedy. But I think the parents already have their answers.
The pontoon was inadequately anchored, only 3 anchor points were secured where there should have been 4.
The lifeguard had witnessed the pontoon flipping several times previously so it should have been repaired or replaced.
As long as the lifeguard reported it to the local authority, his manager, filled in correct incident reports ( whatever their reporting process is) then whoever did not shut down/remove/repair or replace the pontoon is at fault.

unless the teachers witnessed the pontoon flipping previously and ignored that they cannot be held responsible as they could not know about its anchorage.

It was a tragic accident. No one is to blame.

If you read the article, the appeal is mainly focused on the lifeguard and the local authority responsible for the upkeep on the pontoon and swimming area.

"The grounds for the current appeal relate to the upkeep of the orange pontoon which overturned, and the security around it.

"According to court papers, prosecutors want to know why it overturned regularly, why there were only three anchor points and not four, and why there was no limit on the number of people allowed on top of it."

The teachers, as they were part of the original prosecution will be aware of the appeal. But it seems the focus is not on them, but on why the pontoon was not anchored properly, and why there were no limits on how many swimmers could be on it at any time.

A risk assessment isn’t just a tick box exercise. I hope everyone does a dynamic mental one for everything they do. I teach my students and my own children to assess risk in everything they do and weigh up the risk/benefit.

But a written one is done for legal purposes.

I think some people misunderstand the law / what the acquittal actually means or what the purpose of the legal process is in cases like these.

You can be responsible for a child's safety, but that doesn't mean that if that child dies in an accident that you have committed manslaughter by gross negligence.

The question is not "where the teachers responsible for the death?" (arguably they weren't but even if they were...) or "if they had taken different actions, would the death have been avoided?" but actually were their actions (or lack of) so grossly negligent as to actually constitute a crime.

I personally think that threshold should be high. Otherwise we risk criminalising a very unlucky few essentially for having responsible jobs that involve (some) risk.

I think it's obvious that these teachers are not criminals. They haven't recklessly gone into this situation not caring whether the children live or die(!). They haven't repeatedly ignored warnings or safety advice. They've just gone to work and been incredibly unlucky. They will live with this terrible event for the rest of their lives.

I don't agree with prosecuting these teachers. But I do understand why the law treats bereaved parents differently when a child dies. For one thing, there is no living 'victim' to obtain justice for. For another, the parents may well be percieved to be punished by their loss more than the law could ever require. It would be very difficult to argue prosecuting parents was in anyone's interests. While I imagine there would be a great many of the public keen to ensure teachers were held accountable if there was negligence.

The grounds for the current appeal relate to the upkeep of the orange pontoon which overturned, and the security around it.

According to court papers, prosecutors want to know why it overturned regularly, why there were only three anchor points and not four, and why there was no limit on the number of people allowed on top of it.

Seems fair enough to want to know what's happened here.

Until someone is held accountable for Jessica's death, we will never be able to process what happened to her. It simply can't be the case, in those circumstances, that a young girl with her whole life ahead of her died and it's no one's fault

This part of the article stuck me. So they can't accept that even after the investigation that her death could just be a tragic accident and they need someone to blame. Rightly so the teachers haven't been prosecuted for this accident, but they must have been through an extremely stressful time. I feel extremely sorry for the family it's terrible to loose a child in such a way but often it is just a tragic accident and no one's fault.

I wouldn't blame teachers for not wanting to take students on holidays like this just in case something happens.

I don't know what the facts of that case are.

But given the number of times school has taken silly risks with food even after I have run training for them on allergies and worked with the headteacher on allergies it does really frustrate me that some teachers seem to live in a headspace where they just don't understand their responsibilities.

(I do a lot of volunteering work with children, I am always aware that means I am assuming responsibility, with all the implications that entails)

These seem like important questions to answer

I didnt imply a risk assessment is a tick box exercise. I complete risk assessments all the time in my job (a very risk averse profession).

This is what needs to be checked. Did the equipment conform to safety standards?

As a parent, I do my own checks on any activity. I make sure they are suitably qualified and maintained. We do lots of adventure sports but we carefully research first. If teachers take children they are assuming a lot of those checks

DH actually emailed his son's school to point out their chosen residential centre had an appalling track record for safety and refused to send his son. He got a patronising and dismissive email from school in response. The trip went ahead and a horrible accident happened and it was just good fortune no children lost their lives.

I think there are questions to answer re the pontoon & I want to ask those questions if it was my dc.