Page 3 | School trip tragedy - prosecutors trying to overturn not guilty verdict of teachers

Fairydustandsparklylights · 2024-05-30T20:15:41+00:00

It was a horrendous tragedy where a beautiful child lost her life. Parents want the teachers to be found guilty as they want / need someone to blame to try and come to terms with what happened. Looking after other people’s children is a huge responsibility and not a “freebie” holiday. As a teacher, I refuse to do trips and I have many problems at work because of it. Parents complain of a lack of residential trips. This accident now means that 3 teachers have been dragged through court and their personal lives (and their children’s lives) destroyed in the process. link here [[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13475399/amp/French-prosecutors-begin-fight-overturn-decision-clear-three-British-teachers-manslaughter-Jessica-Lawson-12-drowned-lake-school-trip.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13475399/amp/French-prosecutors-begin-fight-overturn-decision-clear-three-British-teachers-manslaughter-Jessica-Lawson-12-drowned-lake-school-trip.html]] How can they be held responsible for a pontoon collapsing? Why do parents think that the teachers are having a jolly when supervising many teenagers abroad? If the child was with her parents when it happened, they wouldn’t have been prosecuted for manslaughter. Why are teachers different? Aibu to say that school trips should be banned completely? This way parents can be the ones to take their children for different experiences. Many would miss out but this is the only way to ensure this doesn’t happen again.

CassandraWebb · 30/05/2024 22:51

1offnamechange · 30/05/2024 22:42

I think it's a fair point OP. There was a young girl who sadly drowned in a water park in Berkshire 2 years ago, for example. There wasn't any criminal investigation into it, just a H&S one by the council. If it had been teachers supervising a school trip rather than her family taking her, I can't see why it should be different.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-66646983#:~:text=An%2011%2Dyear%2Dold%20girl,and%20an%20investigation%20was%20launched.

Edited

From a quick Google this looks far from resolved. Criminal charges could still follow. Unfortunately funding cuts mean H&S investigating teams are often stretched to the limit so it can be years before a prosecution is brought , but the council could absolutely bring a criminal prosecution and may well do so. I can also see that the site where it happened has now permanently closed.

That news article just related to the opening of the inquest

BluebellCrocus · 30/05/2024 22:57

samarrange · 30/05/2024 22:32

Maybe I can help here since I know a little bit about the French legal system, and I have been reading the local press reports, which have been written in a less sensational way than those in the Mail (quelle surprise). For example https://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/nouvelle-aquitaine/haute-vienne/limoges/noyade-d-une-fillette-britannique-a-liginiac-en-juillet-2015-le-proces-en-appel-de-cinq-personnes-2977553.html

In the French system, formally, the search is for the truth, as opposed to two opposing sides presenting the best possible view of the case. Of course, there are lawyers on both sides, but they are notionally committed to finding out the truth of what happened.

The first trial basically ended with shrugged shoulders. The court was unable to determine whether — and if so, to what extent — the death was the fault of the teachers, the lifeguard, or the people in charge of the equipment, so no blame was assigned.

The dead girl's parents appealed, demanding a new trial (to have another go at finding the truth) with different judges, and that's what's happening now. Again, the teachers are not the only ones being judged here; so are the lifeguard and the local town hall (collectively), who were responsible for the pontoon.

From what I've read I think it's unlikely that anything concrete will be established, and even less likely that the teachers will be held responsible (and even more unlikely that the teachers would be the only people held responsible). Even if they are, however, they will serve no jail time. The prosecution has suggested (from the start) that the appropriate punishment would be a suspended sentence. Still something you don't want on your record, but it would serve no great purpose to actually put them (or the lifeguard) in prison.

I think this is a tragedy on a couple of levels. Not just the death of the girl, but also the perhaps understandable inability of the parents to let it go, and the subsequent drama affecting the lives of multiple people. Nevertheless, it doesn't seem to me that there is anything unreasonable about what is happening, given that this is how things work in France. The parents are entitled to ask for this, and so it's happening. We can criticise them for that, but most of us haven't lost a child in tragic circumstances. Maybe they just want closure, and would be happy if the court decided that it was all the fault of the lifeguard, or the town hall when it had the pontoon built X years ago -- I haven't seen any evidence for the OP's comment that the parents specifically want the teachers to be found responsible.

Edited

Yes you are right. The Daily Mail has billed it as "French prosecutors begin fight to overturn decision to clear three British teachers over the manslaughter of Jessica Lawson, 12" but that's not actually what it is. The Daily Mail does have a strong anti teacher bias. It suits them to encourage their readers to direct their anger at teachers rather than the government for running state education into the ground.

Itsallsoboring · 31/05/2024 00:39

this is awful. and so saddening to read.

when i was 16 and off to college for A-levels, I chose Biology A-Level. I had to sign a piece of paper to tell the college that I agree to go on a class field trip to Somerset as part of my A-Level coursework. If I didn't go, I wouldn't get my A-level because the trip was mandatory. I realised later as I became more mature that it was just a free week off for teachers while A-Level biology students sludged through dirty water and swaps, pretending to examine insects and whatnot.

YourPinkDog · 31/05/2024 00:54

The minimum ratio for this is 1 adult to 8 children. The group had 1 adult to 8 children plus a lifeguard. It is usual to have some adults out of the water to watch what is happening and respond. Whether you have more adults than this depends on the conditions, the children's swimming ability and ability to follow any rules. I assume the children were confined to a specific marked area, this would be usual so you could keep an eye on them.
The pontoon should not have flipped over.

Lourdes12 · 31/05/2024 06:08

Not enough adults per child is to blame here. 1 adult per 2 children would be appropriate here since it’s water.

When my boy 8 years old moved up a level at swimming he panicked when he couldn’t feel the bottom of the pool. He sank under the water from exhaustion and didn’t resurface. I noticed before the swimming teacher who had briefly turned around to respond to someone else. They got him out of the pool but he was traumatised and couldn’t go swimming for a year.

Never take your eyes off your child when they are in water

echt · 31/05/2024 06:16

Itsallsoboring · 31/05/2024 00:39

this is awful. and so saddening to read.

when i was 16 and off to college for A-levels, I chose Biology A-Level. I had to sign a piece of paper to tell the college that I agree to go on a class field trip to Somerset as part of my A-Level coursework. If I didn't go, I wouldn't get my A-level because the trip was mandatory. I realised later as I became more mature that it was just a free week off for teachers while A-Level biology students sludged through dirty water and swaps, pretending to examine insects and whatnot.

Did you do the field work unsupervised?

PenguinLord · 31/05/2024 06:31

Pollipops1 · 30/05/2024 21:59

I think there are questions to answer re the pontoon & I want to ask those questions if it was my dc.

Ok, but would you expect a teacher to check and get a ride in every single pontoon before the trip or what?

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 31/05/2024 06:35

Spirallingdownwards · 30/05/2024 21:31

I suspect they proceeded against teachers on the basis that they should have carried out risk assessments for school trips. However as you say they were acquitted.

I would have thought that the owners of the lake would be liable if anyone for not ensuring the pontoon didn't flip

I remember the terrible Lands End case over here years back because the headteacher there had been a teacher of mine and was the nicest bloke you could have ever known. It broke him and he left the profession.

Edited

This. A pontoon that regularly flips seems hazardous. And it is not an appropriate place for school children!

I am not against school trips (not at all). But swimming in a lake is associated with risks. And I am not sure I’d be comfortable with those (especially as a teacher).

edit: and I haven’t read enough about this case to know whether the child to teacher ratio was appropriate. Or if those teachers had lifeguard training!

JudgeJ · 31/05/2024 06:36

BurbageBrook · 30/05/2024 21:25

Awful tragedy and I totally agree. The teachers didn't do anything wrong. It's a horrific thing. I think the pontoon company may hold some responsibility or the lifeguard but there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest the teachers were at fault.

It's as I have always said, if an accident occurs when parents are in charge of a couple of children it's a tragedy, if the same thing occurs when a few teachers are in charge of a large number of children is a cause for blame. How many parents have been prosecuted under similar circumstances to these?

Walkden · 31/05/2024 07:06

"Not enough adults per child is to blame here. 1 adult per 2 children would be appropriate here since it’s water

Yep I well remember the days doing swimming lessons in school when there were 15 teachers and lifeguards in the pool with us.

Parents would be delighted to hear there were so many teachers going on a school trip to France they were paying for I'm sure.

FFs get a grip.

PenguinLord · 31/05/2024 07:35

Lourdes12 · 31/05/2024 06:08

Not enough adults per child is to blame here. 1 adult per 2 children would be appropriate here since it’s water.

When my boy 8 years old moved up a level at swimming he panicked when he couldn’t feel the bottom of the pool. He sank under the water from exhaustion and didn’t resurface. I noticed before the swimming teacher who had briefly turned around to respond to someone else. They got him out of the pool but he was traumatised and couldn’t go swimming for a year.

Never take your eyes off your child when they are in water

My friend is doing a school trip and she was refused another colleague because of money, and after a LOT of asking she was allowed to take a dinner lady, because of £££. No school will give money to staff a trip to have a 1:2 ratio.

PenguinLord · 31/05/2024 07:46

Itsallsoboring · 31/05/2024 00:39

this is awful. and so saddening to read.

when i was 16 and off to college for A-levels, I chose Biology A-Level. I had to sign a piece of paper to tell the college that I agree to go on a class field trip to Somerset as part of my A-Level coursework. If I didn't go, I wouldn't get my A-level because the trip was mandatory. I realised later as I became more mature that it was just a free week off for teachers while A-Level biology students sludged through dirty water and swaps, pretending to examine insects and whatnot.

How is it a free week, when they probably had to give up their actual free evenings with friends and family supervising an ungrateful bunch of entitled kids not doing the work but pretending to? You think anyone actually gives up weekends and evenings because they want to? Dont think you became more mature really.

Lourdes12 · 31/05/2024 08:12

PenguinLord · 31/05/2024 07:35

My friend is doing a school trip and she was refused another colleague because of money, and after a LOT of asking she was allowed to take a dinner lady, because of £££. No school will give money to staff a trip to have a 1:2 ratio.

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I was thinking about parents. When I went on a school trip to Germany at age 12 we all had our parents with us as it involved water parks

PenguinLord · 31/05/2024 08:19

Lourdes12 · 31/05/2024 08:12

I was thinking about parents. When I went on a school trip to Germany at age 12 we all had our parents with us as it involved water parks

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So like, 20 kids and 20 parents? Must have been an expensive trip and a very wealthy area- definitely not a standard. We went on a trip to France at the age of 14 and had 2 teachers with us.

LunaNorth · 31/05/2024 08:25

It’s clearly an issue of poor equipment maintenance.

SuePreemly · 31/05/2024 08:27

Itsallsoboring · 31/05/2024 00:39

this is awful. and so saddening to read.

when i was 16 and off to college for A-levels, I chose Biology A-Level. I had to sign a piece of paper to tell the college that I agree to go on a class field trip to Somerset as part of my A-Level coursework. If I didn't go, I wouldn't get my A-level because the trip was mandatory. I realised later as I became more mature that it was just a free week off for teachers while A-Level biology students sludged through dirty water and swaps, pretending to examine insects and whatnot.

What utter rubbish.
Some A levels have a compulsory fieldwork aspect to them which used to be compulsory to complete: we used to warn non attenders they would have to complete the work via their or organisation during the holidays if they didn't attend because we couldn't sign off to the exam board that their fieldwork was done.

For A level you are expected to gather your own data AND teachers are very very limited as to what input or advice they can give you as you're A level students so you're supposed to have a modicum of intelligence and drive.

So the teacher will have given up 2/3 nights of their own time, potentially driven a minibus to a field study centre and supervised kids 24/7 who are old enough to get up to god only knows what (anyone had the "our daughter got pregnant on a school trip" issue because I know someone who did). It's hugely stressful, unpaid and whilst it can be so worthwhile it's a huge responsibility.

Alwaystired23 · 31/05/2024 08:44

oObyeOo · 30/05/2024 21:46

A risk assessment isn’t just a tick box exercise. I hope everyone does a dynamic mental one for everything they do. I teach my students and my own children to assess risk in everything they do and weigh up the risk/benefit.

But a written one is done for legal purposes.

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I agree. I do risk assessments for work, but also in my personal life. Just yesterday, I was at a busy cross road Junction with my children. So you've got traffic coming in all directions, filters, etc. The pedestrian crossing does take ages to change. Dc moaning as a man crossed the road, why can't we just cross. I explained, unless they know for certain its safe, and where the next car is going to be coming from, it's not worth the risk. The next second, a car comes flying around the corner. So yes, I do mental risk assessments multiple times in a day.

Beekeepingmum · 31/05/2024 08:53

Anyone who says leading these trips is a jolly for the teachers has clearly never done it. It is a one way risk. If it goes well you come home tired and stressed, if it goes badly you have revisit decisions for hours which you only had a few seconds to make before. I used to do it for a voluntary organization, I don't any more. The range of expectations from parents is too high some don't let little bobby out of their sight at any time despite him being 17 and expect the same level of supervision, but these kids are then higher risk as they have no self-awareness and minute you don't supervise them 100% of the time something goes wrong.

CassandraWebb · 31/05/2024 08:55

PenguinLord · 31/05/2024 07:35

My friend is doing a school trip and she was refused another colleague because of money, and after a LOT of asking she was allowed to take a dinner lady, because of £££. No school will give money to staff a trip to have a 1:2 ratio.

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And that is the kind of thing that an inquest or investigation would drill into. And then lessons can be learnt and improvements made. If I was refused the help I felt was needed I would either keep a paper trail or that fact or if I felt it was really unsafe I would refuse to go.

Scruffily · 31/05/2024 08:56

Spirallingdownwards · 30/05/2024 21:31

I suspect they proceeded against teachers on the basis that they should have carried out risk assessments for school trips. However as you say they were acquitted.

I would have thought that the owners of the lake would be liable if anyone for not ensuring the pontoon didn't flip

I remember the terrible Lands End case over here years back because the headteacher there had been a teacher of mine and was the nicest bloke you could have ever known. It broke him and he left the profession.

Edited

According to the report, the concern with the teachers seems to be that they should have intervened on seeing that the pontoon was overcrowded. However, they weren't to know that it wasn't fully anchored, and I would say they were entitled to rely on the expertise of the relevant staff including the lifeguard.

Scruffily · 31/05/2024 08:58

EsmeSusanOgg · 30/05/2024 21:44

If you read the article, the appeal is mainly focused on the lifeguard and the local authority responsible for the upkeep on the pontoon and swimming area.

"The grounds for the current appeal relate to the upkeep of the orange pontoon which overturned, and the security around it.

"According to court papers, prosecutors want to know why it overturned regularly, why there were only three anchor points and not four, and why there was no limit on the number of people allowed on top of it."

The teachers, as they were part of the original prosecution will be aware of the appeal. But it seems the focus is not on them, but on why the pontoon was not anchored properly, and why there were no limits on how many swimmers could be on it at any time.

It appears that there is more to the teachers' involvement than simply being aware of the appeal. The report says it is aimed at overturning their acquittal also.

CassandraWebb · 31/05/2024 08:58

JudgeJ · 31/05/2024 06:36

It's as I have always said, if an accident occurs when parents are in charge of a couple of children it's a tragedy, if the same thing occurs when a few teachers are in charge of a large number of children is a cause for blame. How many parents have been prosecuted under similar circumstances to these?

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Parents absolutely are and can be investigated. I dont know why you think they aren't!

Scruffily · 31/05/2024 09:05

Itsallsoboring · 31/05/2024 00:39

this is awful. and so saddening to read.

when i was 16 and off to college for A-levels, I chose Biology A-Level. I had to sign a piece of paper to tell the college that I agree to go on a class field trip to Somerset as part of my A-Level coursework. If I didn't go, I wouldn't get my A-level because the trip was mandatory. I realised later as I became more mature that it was just a free week off for teachers while A-Level biology students sludged through dirty water and swaps, pretending to examine insects and whatnot.

I'm surprised that further maturity hasn't led you to realise that you were wrong to think it was a free week off for the staff. Do you really imagine it's a jolly for them to be standing around supervising in muddy swamps making sure that students are safe and behaving, not running off or attacking each other, and being available to answer questions etc? Let alone being on call all night to oversee said students and deal with any emergencies?

CwmYoy · 31/05/2024 09:13

The quest for vengeance won't ease the pain of the parents. To pursue the teachers is cruel and unwarranted.

Accidents happen. The pontoon had overturned many times with no drownings over that summer. Of course it should have been better anchored but how the parents think the teachers should know that is beyond me.

Those teachers have been through hell already for something that wasn't their fault. The parents need counselling not revenge.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 31/05/2024 09:17

when i was 16 and off to college for A-levels, I chose Biology A-Level. I had to sign a piece of paper to tell the college that I agree to go on a class field trip to Somerset as part of my A-Level coursework. If I didn't go, I wouldn't get my A-level because the trip was mandatory. I realised later as I became more mature that it was just a free week off for teachers while A-Level biology students sludged through dirty water and swaps, pretending to examine insects and whatnot.

How on earth do you think that being in charge of a group of students 24 hours a day for a week, away from your own family, having had to organise the trip, not to mention set work for your other classes while you're away is 'a free week off'?! You really haven't got a clue.