School trip tragedy - prosecutors trying to overturn not guilty verdict of teachers

[Fairydustandsparklylights]

It was a horrendous tragedy where a beautiful child lost her life. Parents want the teachers to be found guilty as they want / need someone to blame to try and come to terms with what happened.

Looking after other people’s children is a huge responsibility and not a “freebie” holiday. As a teacher, I refuse to do trips and I have many problems at work because of it. Parents complain of a lack of residential trips. This accident now means that 3 teachers have been dragged through court and their personal lives (and their children’s lives) destroyed in the process.

link here https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13475399/amp/French-prosecutors-begin-fight-overturn-decision-clear-three-British-teachers-manslaughter-Jessica-Lawson-12-drowned-lake-school-trip.html

How can they be held responsible for a pontoon collapsing? Why do parents think that the teachers are having a jolly when supervising many teenagers abroad? If the child was with her parents when it happened, they wouldn’t have been prosecuted for manslaughter. Why are teachers different?

Aibu to say that school trips should be banned completely? This way parents can be the ones to take their children for different experiences. Many would miss out but this is the only way to ensure this doesn’t happen again.

They also want to know why adults, including the teachers, did not intervene when they saw the platform was overcrowded.

That's from the article and That's the only time they mention any potential wrong doing on behalf of the teachers.

Stressful as it is for everhone involved it's good that the prosecutors are looking at all angles. That's the only way to reduce the risk of accidents like this happening in the future. I assume the teachers will be acquitted again as they can't be blamed for a tragic accident.

Even when the pontoon overturned I assume they couldn't be expected to know that the girl had been hit on the head. If this kept happening I can imagine everyone else was laughing and finding it great fun. However, obviously a pontoon is not meant to flip over and the fact that whoever was responsible for the lake and pontoon did not bother to do something about it does need investigating.

24 students to 3 teachers also doesn't seem enough for a water based activity but again that is not the teacher's fault.

Anyway my point is when an accident happens you have to reflect on whether anything could have prevented it or what lessons can be learnt but it doesn't necessarily mean that anyone is actually at fault.

I remember this tragedy and seeing the teachers crying as they left the courthouse.
I no longer run school trips since the time that a couple only told me that their child often tried to run away as they dropped him off at the coach.

I really feel for the teachers/lifeguard.
From what's presented in the article it just reads as a tragic accident. But if anyone should be considered to blame surely it's those responsible for the upkeep/securing of the pontoon - sounds like it was known to flip, only secured at 3 points not 4, no maximum capacity identified - yet there's little mention of this authority being investigated/cleared.

In terms of the teachers risk assessment; they took the group swimming to a lifeguarded area, one in the water and 2 on the bank. That all sounds like a properly organised activity. If the teachers had taken the group to butlins would they have been expected to walk the pool/slides sight reviewing safety features/maximum capacity for any floats/stairways were safe etc. Absolutely not. If however the teachers were taken the kids to swim in a lake next to a campsite for example with no lifeguard cover/just a lake no setup for play then I would expect a full risk assessment of the area and how they were going to keep the group safe themselves.

Years ago I worked at an outdoor residential centre where we'd take school groups on river trips with rafts - some inflatable some constructed by the children with barrels logs and ropes, these would flip in the water and there was always potential for accident/injury. It was the centre who were responsible for the main risk assessment, which would be no simple task there's no 'raft building river trip' qualification that staff could undertake. The teachers wouldn't be trained/qualified to begin to anticipate and mediate risks on this kind of activity. Their responsibility would be to make sure the centre was properly accredited to provide the activity.

In this case I would not expect the teachers to have judged the safe capacity for what probably appeared like a secured pontoon which was also being overseen by a lifeguard. There's no mention of the lifeguard was absent, it sounds like they recognised an accident had occurred and rescued her from the water. Tragically couldn't be saved but not something the lifeguard should be prosecuted for. The ambulance/hospital teams couldn't save her either should they be to blame?!?!

Nothing would be picked up in any investigation because LA imposes the ratio and the ratio was correct without the extra adult, 1 adult for 20 students for that year group. This I believe is nationwide more or less, so they actually made my friend a massive 'favour' by adding an extra member of staff.

I completely agree. The parents want to blame someone but would they want a manslaughter verdict if it had happened on a family holiday. I feel sorry for the teachers. I struggle to think about anything worse than being a teacher, it’s one of those jobs that takes over your life and you get so little recognition.

@CassandraWebb can I ask how do you do these checks? Is it a case of Google or is there somewhere else that you look? Do you go in person?

Very sad, but I agree, it's not the teacher's fault. Its a shame many schools don't do trips anymore.

I remember fondly some great trips

They also want to know why adults, including the teachers, did not intervene when they saw the platform was overcrowded

This is an interesting point though. I would have thought that the lifeguard should have intervened when it was clear that the pontoon was overcrowded. But then, some things happen very quickly, so the time frame is an important factor.

I think the only responsibility a teacher would have, is to reinforce the lifeguard advice ...

I don't think the teachers are responsible here.
The pontoon wasn't secured properly and that's the responsibility of whoever owns the lake and also the responsiblity of the lifeguard to report that the pontoon was flipping over which it had done many times previously. The lifeguard is also responsible for monitoring overcrowding.

I do sympathise with those that were there when it happened, @Fairydustandsparklylights .

But please do not frame this as the parents taking action against the teachers- why are you doing that? This is not a parent v teacher situation, but a legal process taking place in France. The parents are not suing the teachers, not do they have any say in who is prosecuted. It is a health and safety case going though the French courts.

Years ago, I was a parent helper for a four hour trip to London zoo and had to supervise six seven year-olds. I found it incredibly stressful and struggled to keep an eye on them all as they got excited and ran around.

i simply cannot imagine taking a larger group abroad. Never mind doing activities. Just the travelling from A to B would destroy me. if I was a teacher, I would not want to run school trips and admire those who do. Especially residential ones and especially abroad.

Honestly I don’t get this obsession with school trips anyway. In my country we only had day trips to theatre or museums and everyone was totally fine. These school trips are just not necessary

You can’t take your eyes off children when they’re in water. It’s a nightmare to do and almost impossible with that many children.

I dread taking my class on trips and always go home with the worst stress headache.
I also hate my own children going on trips when water is involved.

It is a terribly sad situation for the parents of Jessica. The teachers were in charge and she died. Awful for everyone.

I think the difference is parents would probably be on the pontoon too, I know either myself of DH would. We’d also not let our children on with so many people. Our sole focus would be our children, unlike a teacher being responsible for dozens of children. If we knew it regularly turned over we’d be extra vigilant and we dive straight in if it was our child as instinct to protect our child would override everything else.

You really can’t compare the two scenarios.

Why do parents think that the teachers are having a jolly when supervising many teenagers abroad?

Where dose it say the parents are accusing the teachers of having a jolly?

I have a lot of respect for teachers who sacrifice their time for residential trips and absolutely grateful for them giving children opportunities. I was once one of those disadvantaged children who’s parents were so poor I got a trip away with other disadvantaged kids, it was amazing, I’d have never had an experience like it from my parents. But as a parent i absolutely understand that this little girls parents want answers and even someone to blame, because if they can’t blame someone else they will be blaming themselves for letting her go on the trip in the first place.

My Dd has just turned 12 and will be going to France next year, this story really scares me, but I can’t stop her from going. But after reading this I’m thinking what if something happens, she’s small, has health issues, if I let her go is it my fault for not saying no if something happens to her, will I be able to live with myself for putting her wants ahead of my fears. But most importantly I’d be think why wasn’t I there to protect her. And I’m fairly certain I will be blaming those I trusted to protect her, whether rightly or wrongly.

Of course parents are prosecuted for manslaughter and neglect if that’s appropriate.

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/inadequate-parents-charlie-dunn-sentenced-953935.amp

https://metro.co.uk/2017/04/03/parents-of-baby-boy-who-drowned-in-bath-found-guilty-of-manslaughter-6551552/amp/

I refused to go on school trips when I worked in school too OP. It's just too much responsibility. And you're on duty 24 hours a day, every day until the children are returned to their parents. I agree they should be stopped.

Come on, these are grossly different cases.

In the case of Charlie Dunn, there are had been repeated social services action for neglect and child endangerment against them and they didn't even notice he was gone for over 20 minutes. He was found by other children and his parents had not even looked for him. It was a pattern of repeated behaviour and a grossly neglectful decision to not supervise a seven year old at all at a lake.

In the teachers' case, they were at an official swim venue with lifeguards. They had one teacher in the water and two observing. They hadn't wandered off and left them alone.
There was a tragic accident with the pontoon which the teachers could not have been expected to know had a history of flipping over. They can make a reasonable assumption that a professional venue has taken due care of it's equipment and staffing.

In most cases of the pontoon flipping, this would have been nothing more than a funny story for the kids (as it bad been every previous time it flipped) but one child hit their head and drowned. They would have lost consciousness immediately and their first breath in under water would have filled their lungs. They would have needed to have an adult right by them to have stood a good chance of surviving.

Drowning is quick and silent and it's not like it looks in films. Most children who drown do so within 20ft of an adult.

This Is such a tragedy for everyone involved but I don’t think dragging the teachers through the courts again is the right thing to do. It does sound more like a fault with the activity centre if there was a known issue with the pontoon.

Until 6 years ago, I was regularly the lead teacher taking groups of 80 teenagers to France and they were honestly the most stressful (but rewarding in some ways) weekends of my life. Our risk assessments were very comprehensive and checked by multiple stakeholders in the school but there are always things that can go wrong. Once I decided to start my family, I refused to go on the trips any more because it didn’t want to leave my family in the holidays (we were only allowed to take trips in school holidays). No one else wanted to take on the accountability, so they stopped. And even without my family I think I would have stopped in the few years anyway as the pressure and responsibility seemed to increases each year.

@MojoMoon i didn’t suggest they were similar, but Google showed the the pp saying you never hear of parents being prosecuted is wrong.

I promise this was not the case. If I want to go on holiday I go with friends or family. Not 30 kids and a couple of my work colleagues traipsing round bogs in Somerset. I’m in teaching, albeit uni, not school but you’d have to seriously compensate me for going on a residential trip with them. I genuinely can’t think of anything worse and my school teacher friends feel the same and none of them look forward to school trips.

Also I think this is harsh on the teachers but there is an argument that they should have intervened earlier when 20 students crowded onto the pontoon, far above its capacity. But then again the lifeguard should have told them there was a max limit. I don’t think they should be jailed and they probably feel bad enough.

Teachers do the trips in their professional capacity, of course there is an investigation and potentially prosecution if things go wrong. Just as there would be at a watersports centre, or a nursing home, or a factory

I agree, if people don't like the responsibility or don't feel comfortable with the level of cover for the trip then they need to refuse to go. I have certainly refused to do things at work if I felt I would put myself at an unacceptable risk professionally.

Equally I have helped out lots of times with things as a volunteer and always fully understood that I am responsible for the children in my care and therefore am far more cautious than I would be if it was just my own children.

With my own children I wouldn't take all 4 swimming in a lake unless I had another adult with me, and they are all strong swimmers. And I would have checked any safety rules /risks relating to the area. And I would be in the water with them and prepared to tell them to get out immediately if they didn't follow my instructions.

One of them is my son's teacher. She is still at the same school. She's highly thought of.

So pleased to hear she is doing well @SoulMole

School trips are incredibly stressful. I've led and accompanied many in my career as a secondary school teacher, and you really do carry the weight of responsibility 24 hours a day while you're away. I really feel for these teachers, who have been and are continuing to go through a horrendous experience.

When you book an activity with an external provider/venue as part of a school trip, you will be relying on their risk assessment and staffing to be fit for purpose. When we arrive at places like PGL or other activity centres, we have to trust that the equipment has been maintained and serviced, and that the staff on site are trained and qualified, as per that organisation's own risk assessments and legal responsibilities. If an accident were to happen because of an external organisation's failure to maintain equipment or their staff's failure to do their jobs properly, we can't be held responsible for that. Obviously if I arrived and saw that a piece of equipment was faulty, I would report it immediately and not let my kids on it, but sometimes faults are not immediately obvious. In the case of this pontoon, the teachers would have had no way of knowing it was faulty, and they would have trusted that the lifeguard knew the legal safety limits of the numbers allowed on top. It would not have been for them to intervene and order children off the pontoon - especially as I'm sure some of the children in the lake at the time would not have been part of their school group. That would have been up to the lifeguard.

I think school trips are a wonderful opportunity for students and I would never sanction banning them. However I do think it's important to consider what activities are truly necessary and to minimise risk wherever possible. My school doesn't allow any swimming or other water based activities on school trips because they deem it to be too high risk. It's so much harder to ensure safety in the water as opposed to on dry land and I think some schools do open themselves up to unnecessary potential problems when they plan school trips that involve excessively risky activities that have no real educational purpose.

I hope that the parents get the answers they want from this retrial.

Really? That's good to know!!