To not see how the gov will make any money from taxing private schools?

[AngryHedgehog]

All the other threads seem to have descended into bunfighting over the ethics of the policy, yet I'm not really understanding how this stands to benefit the government as surely they'll be footing the bill for all the kids that move to state schools?

As a disclaimer, I don't have kids and wouldn't be able to afford to privately educate them even if I did, despite earning a half decent salary.

I'm reading that it costs around £7k per pupil per term, so it would take the VAT from around four families to fund each additional child moving to state education.

Given that this may be 4/10 kids in private education moving to state schooling, I don't see how this doesn't create a net loss as there will only be 50% more kids left in private education and there needs to be multiple times that for the VAT increase to foot the bill.

Surely I'm missing something here?

Seriously. This hand wringing is embarrassing

I'm not hand wringing, my younger son only has one year left so frankly it doesn't affect me.

Even if its 5%, that's still 350 kids and far more than there's places for at our local schools. In reality, I think it will be harder to manage as there'll be bulges. You'll get higher intakes at 11 and 13 as parents decide it's the tipping point for committing to private secondary. Same for sixth form (particularly as parents have cottoned on to the UCAS advantage) and some just before GCSEs.

The question remains: how will a sudden influx of extra pupils be catered for if our local state schools simply don't have places? There are better ways of improving state schools than adding more pupils and pressure.

I think what's more embarrassing is that Labour blatantly haven't done any research other than the flawed and overly optimistic IFS report. They haven't even briefed all of their own members that they have u-turned on charitable status (Peymana Assad amongst others).

Private school parents pay their fair share of tax. Our tax also goes towards state schools and them being able to function, why should our own children’s education be taxed?

Cue the mass exodus of professionals leaving the UK as we are done with paying for being ambitious and wanting better for our children than the bare minimum provided by the state.

UK - the only country in the Europe to tax education - trail blazers.

Another - thank you for answering my question

That is a very good question and I’m not sure why you’re the first to ask it! Didn’t even occur to me 🤣 So I just looked it up. Apparently, Member states can apply a ‘certain discretion’ as to what is included

I agree that the numbers will not drop by 20% overnight if VAT is added onto school fees. The majority will do whatever is necessary to maintain stability in the short term. But if you look 5 years ahead, it is highly probable the number attending the local states will be 20% higher as children reaching transition points will move sector (and I can guarantee the parents will be doing everything to make sure they are not moving into the under-subscribed failing school).
Parents who were previously considering private will start and stay in the state sector - the shift has already started with the threat of VAT.

So the losers will be those who would have previously got into the better state schools in the area but are now priced out of catchment.

The only winners here are the ultra wealthy - they can continue paying and have less competition for places at top privates

Yes to all this

There is universal access to free state education. There is no societal need for PE. Buying a superior education for your children is a massive privilege and luxury. I chose to do this for a while but am very aware that this is the case. Private schools are not providing a universal and necessary service. They are offering a service for those that can afford it. If they all closed tomorrow, children would all still receive education. Therefore, they are providing a luxury service.

There is universal access to free state education.

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-02-13/nearly-9000-children-with-special-educational-needs-miss-out-on-education#

So then why this statistic?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg3382380vko

The truth is that the current education system is failing 100s of thousands of children.

Private schools are not providing a universal and necessary service.

So why are education authorities paying millions of pounds to the independent school sector to educate children with SEN?

This is also happening to kids who have been at private school. It’s a bigger problem than the state system.

How is that relevant?

@Sloejelly they're not. All parents of children with SEN at our school pay for fees and pay for the 1-1 on top of that themselves. Other independents in the area are selective so they effectively don't have any children with SEN

There are plenty of schools with spaces near me. They are the kind of schools PE parents wont send their kids to in any circumstances. They probably wouldn’t even send it to the good secondary my DD goes to, it’s a good school but still had behavioural issues.
Its clear these schools aren’t going to pass on the full 20%, and a lot of parents when they see the alternative will find the money.

The very pristine PS near me has a theatre where big name comediennes and musicians play. Maybe more need to diversify to make them financially viable.

Stop all this nonsense about contributing so much more than everyone else. Who delivers the food in the shops you buy from? Who sells that food to you? Etc. People on lower incomes aren’t less ambitious you know. Aren’t less hard working. If you want to move to a country that doesn’t value equal opportunities and doesn’t value paying a FAIR share to the public pot so that those who are less privileged are doing ok too, then I’m happy to cheerily wave you goodbye.

Well that just shows you know absolutely nothing about the SEN sector.

@Foodusername if people are really behind equal opportunities and people truly want more of a level playing field, wouldn't it be better to have more funded places at independent schools rather than making it available only to the super wealthy to whom a tax increase won't make any difference? Enforce a strict number of funded places that each school has to adhere to. That's what I would be behind. Try to make it more accessible rather than less, which is exactly what this policy will do.

It sounds like you want that sandwich seller and his doctor to be paid the same?

@Sloejelly I'm only going on how it works in our school and the other independents in the area. We have a lot of children with SEN at our school because the other independents require you to pass an entrance exam.

It's interesting because we have a lot of doctors at our independent school so I wonder if all those in favour of the 35% pay increase also support the fee increase. In one hand and out the other eh!

Here is just one specialist independent school. Full time fees in excess of £100,000 per year. School income £3 million. Fees all paid by local authorities (and as in Scotland, none will have an EHCP unless placed there from England).

https://www.falklandhouseschool.org/

There are many many others. You have completely ignored a whole crucial independent SEN sector.

And why should she move school where she is settled?

To me, this is the biggest problem with this policy. My child isn't in a private school, and even pre-vat it is out of reach for us, but she is in a great school that she loves and is very settled in, and I would absolutely hate to have to move her.

Whatever anyone's opinion on private schools and the tax status of them, you cannot deny that changing this will cause a upset to a lot of children which needs to be factored into the policy, some clarity on exemptions (I think any SEN children should be able to receive some sort of exemption) or any financial support available would help Starmers case on this one.

I think Labour are the better party and are likely to win the election, but will have a much larger majority if they jump off the fence.

I think any SEN children should be able to receive some sort of exemption

Though no one on this thread has been able to explain how SEN children would be consistently identified across the four different SEN/ASN systems affected by the VAT. Even if we applied it to those in receipt of disability benefits this is also a devolved process so differs. (And disability does not equal SEN)

I do foresee this causing issues with consultant recruitment in areas with poor state schools. Those areas struggle to recruit in many specialities anyway and if the local independent school is now more expensive it’s only going to get worse.