To not see how the gov will make any money from taxing private schools?

[AngryHedgehog]

All the other threads seem to have descended into bunfighting over the ethics of the policy, yet I'm not really understanding how this stands to benefit the government as surely they'll be footing the bill for all the kids that move to state schools?

As a disclaimer, I don't have kids and wouldn't be able to afford to privately educate them even if I did, despite earning a half decent salary.

I'm reading that it costs around £7k per pupil per term, so it would take the VAT from around four families to fund each additional child moving to state education.

Given that this may be 4/10 kids in private education moving to state schooling, I don't see how this doesn't create a net loss as there will only be 50% more kids left in private education and there needs to be multiple times that for the VAT increase to foot the bill.

Surely I'm missing something here?

@EasternStandard

I see you on other threads and although we don't agree I do respect your view.

We are not going to agree on this.

I am fairly well off but would never send my kids to private school.

It perpetuates an unequal society, when well off kids' parents purchase a ticket to a network and access to the best jobs and influence, be it finance, government, the judiciary or whatever.

Are private kids any cleverer than state kids? You know they are not.

But yet they dominate the top jobs by a huge margin.

It's not fair.

So if the luxury product you are buying no longer has a tax exemption, frankly on behalf of the 93% of kids in the country, the schools need to cut their cloth according to their customers needs.

So if the luxury product you are buying

Do you mean you as in generally?

We were lucky to use really good state. That’ll get more inaccessible via house price though due to the extra tax policy

Just generally it’s poor economically and behaviourally and will damage a sector, there are better ways to improve education

@EasternStandard

Yes I meant "you" as in "one".

Not you personally.

It's not meant to make the Government money. It's meant to result in private schools closing down. This was Corbyn's policy, at least he was honest about it!

This is abolition by stealth. Though the ones remaining will be the big one like Eton. Local day schools will fold.

Some may decide to take kids out if PE. I just don’t believe the numbers will be great. And if those parents that want keep them in and the schools can’t adapt and prove their resilience well thems the breaks in a capitalist, individualistic society.

It’s a legacy policy that is no longer relevant and assuring VAT is just righting that wrong.

Main mitigation will have to be staff cuts. Well done. My sons school runs with a small annual surplus - supports bursaries. Where's the fat to cut?

It’s not a legacy policy though. It’s illegal to charge VAT on education in the EU for a reason. Most sensible countries see a decent education as a benefit to society.

" thems the breaks in a capitalist, individualistic society" is one of the more ironic things said on this thread.

@wigywhoo

"Main mitigation will have to be staff cuts. "

Why staff cuts, instead of a slight increase in pupils?

After all, the teacher/pupil ratio in private is half that of state.

There are options if you look for them.

Just like the state sector has to.

Why staff cuts, instead of a slight increase in pupils?

Those who want to use the private system already are doing, on the whole. How is a 20% fee increase going to tempt more people to switch to private? Where are the increased numbers going to come from?

Both my SN girls went private, if I'd had to pay any more they'd have moved to the state system.

*There are options if you look for them.

Just like the state sector has to.*

but the state sector is free. In the private sector, all parents have the alternative to switch to state if they no longer think they get value for money. And then they can use the money saved for tutors to top up any additional needs. And/or go part time and educate their children themselves.

i am hoping that Starmer also will force state schools to accept any transfer from private schools at short notice. Sometimes you read about local authorities not immediately finding space. They do have a duty to find space for all children who want a space.

Err, bigger classes means less teachers!!!

The legacy will be poor

Damaging a sector and not improving education

If no extra funding no extra teachers either

So you are agreeing that VAT is being applied here as punishment?

After all, the teacher/pupil ratio in private is half that of state.

Are specialist schools included in that figure? One of our local specialist schools has classes of 4 to 5 pupils, each of whom has one, occasionally 2 teaching assistants. No one is saying there is any over staffing there, those are the ratios required to meet the very complex needs of those children.

@AhNowTed
The figure is also skewed by the fact that private schools generally offer more subjects at secondary level, which partly accounts for the ratio. Our school offers around 10 more subjects at GCSE level than our catchment school. It’s not as straightforward as saying “employ fewer teachers”.

Honestly I don't know and there's been no report on this that I can find.

One would assume (I hope so) that specialist private schools accommodating complex needs would be exempt.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/labour-lazy-private-school-plan-cost-them-3087393

@Another76543

I never said "employ fewer teachers".

On the contrary.

Frankly if the private sector can't survive without a tax exemption, they need to adjust their business model.

Across the board.

Class sizes, salaries, pensions, buildings, land and so on.

The IFS found that, despite increasing fees, none of it was spent on lowering class sizes. It was spent on other stuff.

Schools need to cut their cloth according to their customers needs and affordability.

The IFS found that, despite increasing fees, none of it was spent on lowering class sizes. It was spent on other stuff.

That seems a rather nonsense observation. They don’t need to decrease class sizes if parents are happy with the current class size. They do need to pay increases in staff wages, utility costs, transport costs. So what IFS are saying is schools are not increasing fees to spend on discretionary items.

Perhaps, but I will say again.

Frankly if the private sector can't survive without a tax exemption, they need to adjust their business model.

And cater to their customers needs and affordability.

They have options.

And if they can't or won't adjust, and are basically unviable, that's sad.

Just like other businesses.

‘If businesses can’t survive when a large increase in price to consumers is imposed on them then they are basically unviable’

With that sort of attitude Labour is going to do wonders for the economy 🙄

If this 20% tax closes schools, shifts students, makes the best state more inaccessible and no extra funding / teachers do you still applaud it?

@AhNowTed I don't think adding vat to school fees is going to attract people who are state to go private so I can't see how they would be able to increase the class size. All of the private schools in our area have spaces and are advertising for the September intake whereas previously they've had waiting lists so I really can't see increasing the class being an option!