Is this a generous holiday offer from the company?

[workingbalance]

I'm a director of a small company - 25 people. We have a 4-day working week - so 100% work / 80% of your time / 100% salary - it works for us as we are not front facing and have become more effective using digital technology and more concise in our working styles - everyone loves it (although I do work the extra day - as it is a quiet day to get my work done!). We have been doing this for two years.

For reference (although not quite of relevance to the question) - they can also work from home one day a week and apply for two weeks of the year to work remotely (some have worked from France for example). We also offer flexible time - so they can start need early/finish early or late etc up to an hour with no need for permission - and we also are generous in supporting us they we have family pressures - children and/or parents. It is 9 - 5pm with TOIL for any overtime. We work in an industry that delivers joy to people - so a lovely thing to be part of. We also provide good quality tea and coffee with biscuits freely available, provide a breakfast out once a month, and provide loads of things for free through partnerships.

However some of the team recently have complained that the holiday allowance shouldn't be pro rata for the 4 - days (it works out 4 days less a year than if it was a 5 day week - as we do work 5 days for a period when we are super busy this is obviously not pro rata) plus an extra 41 days off. We have low staff turn over and everyone is positive in their appraisals but this has thrown me somewhat as I feel it is fair, what is recommended by the 4-day working week guides and no one has complained before. It seems to stem from a couple of new people recently who have pointed out that their contract says - "You are entitled to 20 days’ holiday during each holiday year or the pro-rata equivalent if you work part-time. In addition, you are entitled to take the usual public holidays in England and Wales. The 4-day working week takes place from the 1st January until mid May, when you then return to a 5-day working week until end July. Then - 4 days for the remainder of the year"

They now feel that this is not correct as in they should get the full allowance plus the 5th day off - this came from the person who is leading on it - "I know some staff are really questioning this and want to seek time off in lieu or financial compensation for the leave they believe they haven’t had these last two years."

I am meeting the team next week but it has made me feel upset and a bit confused that they are challenging this when I feel the contract is quite clear (we verbally have discussed it in staff appraisals and how it is broken down is written on the holiday request sheet) and of course how I feel with regard to what we do to support them and provide autonomy over their working conditions.

I am happy to get a different perspective on it from other employees as I don't want my emotions not allowing me to see clearly and of course as a company director you have a certain perspective - but I feel it is fair and generous and frankly it is taking up to much of my time and energy!

It sounds like an amazing place to work. If you generally have low turnover and everyone's happy, but have taken on a couple of people who are stirring things up, I'd sooner get rid of those people immediately. They're not going to fit into your company's culture.

if you had a 5 day week, and 5 weeks (for arguments sake, the number doesn’t matter), they would need 25 days leave

You have a 4 day week, so for 5 weeks, they need 20 days leave. It’s the same amount of leave

They’re A set of chancers

I work a 4 day week and get the pro rata equivalent.

I sometime switch my ‘day off’ to the beginning of the week rather than the end to make it so I don’t have to use as much leave.

Run ot through the .gov holiday calculator and that will give you your answer.

They're getting paid full time hours for working part time hours and now also want full time holidays on top?

I think you're already being generous enought with everything and they're trying to take advantage of that generosity

Sounds like a great place to work, have you got any vacancies?
would it make it more understandable to your employees if you expressed their leave allowance in terms of hours, rather than days? (Like is done with P/T employees)

I would show the workings (if you haven’t already), ie the number of holidays due for the weeks they work 4 days and the holidays for the weeks they work 5 and that you’ve added the two numbers together.

The people causing a fuss sounds ungrateful to me with is why I would lay it out in black and white so there’s no arguments. But I’d be wondering about the long term and what their next complaint would be. They sound like they’re trying to get more out of an already generous employer. I think you need to stand firm because if you relent on this, it will be something else next.

It sounds like a fabulous workplace on paper, but I can see where they are coming from, and I am now a middle aged mner!

I'm unclear if it's 20 days AL under the part four day model or 16?

I'm very aware they only work four day weeks for part of the year, and yes a big part of me thinks they are chancing it, but that's not a lot of AL either way - you're on the legal minimums and depending on your industry, might be out of kilter.

Could there be a compromise whereby they can choose NOT to work the four days, but do five instead, to take it at a time which better suits instead? It may also depend on your workforce demographic. A four day week would suit me well now I have DC, but in my 20s all I wanted was max time away in big chunks.

Yes I use the gov. holiday calculator - so I know the holiday allowance is correct. They can also swap the day off so they can have 4 day weekends some weeks if they refer....

They are either entitled or chancers. Are they a young demographic?

I think this is just proof that with some people you can never give enough.

It sounds like a great place to work. If they want full-time holiday allowance tell them they will need to work full time.

If you don't have a HR advisor firm, get one now. If you handle this wrong your lovely working regime will be soured forever and worse case is someone taking you to tribunal.
There is always going to be one person who ruins these things for everyone.

Yes I offer that option as well - as one person prefers to do 5 days some of the weeks for longer summer school holidays.

I realise it is the minimum - but it is aligned to what our industry and most ironically struggle to take the time off and carry it over probably a bit to do with TOIL - which builds up quickly if you support an away event with a fair amount of travel.

Thanks for replying, so to clarify, they receive:

100% (FT) pay
16 days AL
xxx number of four day weeks
Plus other benefits listed

Or is it 20 days AL? Sorry, I'm still not clear. (Not being obtuse, genuinely having a thick Sunday but I think it's the key here).

Yes that is all quite clear the working outs from the start, as we consulted with them when we decided on the 4-day week - so no surprises - with no complaints...then and none until a few weeks ago.

I did email it all last week - quite clearly laying it out and the most came back and said that it made perfect sense and that they love the 4 day week. It is just a couple of people - including one I have hired at a senior level.

We have had such a harmonious working environment for so long - this has really thrown me....

100% (FT) pay - yes
16 days AL - yes
41 weeks of 4-day weeks - yes
Plus other benefits - yes
So 65 days holiday a year including bank (with the ability to take them how it works best for them)

I have run it past her - she signed it off two years ago - so hopefully will still agree with her own advice :)

I know that what it feels like unfortunately ....

I work a 4 day week and get 80% of the holiday allowance. If I want a week off it’s 4 days leave, not 5. The people complaining are being incredibly unreasonable and it just shows you can’t please some people.

They are a mix actually - as I also try hard to make sure as a company we represent all ages ! I am not yet 100% sure of those who have complained - so don't want make assumptions.

"If they want full-time holiday allowance tell them they will need to work full time." - trying not to let that pop out of mouth!!! 🙄

That's clear. They are absolutely taking the piss.

What do you do? I need a new job! (And I promise I'm usually a bit more smart than I've evidently been this morning).

HR here

Firstly, check if the contract calculates holiday by days worked or hours

If hours
Using 28 days entitlement as an example..
Easiest way to look at it is that a “day” counts as a 5th of your contract
If they work 40 hours over 5 days then their entitlement is 40 divided by 5 = 8 multiplied by 28 days which equals 224 hours.
If they work 40 hours over 4 days then it’s still 40 divided by 5 (8) multiplied by 28 equals 224 hours.
So the amount of days themselves don’t matter - it’s the contracted hours

If you have a colleague who works eg 20 hours a week, they are entitled to (20/5) x 28 so 112 hours
Its all about the contract hours worked

Assuming you pay for lunch and break time (to make calculation straightforward) they work 8 hours a day, 4 days a week so 32 hours. A 5th of that is 6.4
Multiply that by 28 and you get 179.2 hours entitlement

If it is done in days:
As it is a 4 day week then the legal entitlement is 22.4 days

If you want to provide them with evidence of this then go to the ACAS site/gov site and use the holiday entitlement calculator. It will match my figures.

If you are already letting them take 28 days( including bank holidays) at 8 hours a time then they are taking 28 full days and 224 hours off so you are actually giving them too much holiday already!!!

It sounds like you've got a generally contented workforce (and who wouldn't be, it sounds amazing) with one or two who are stirring things up. Perhaps they are not the right fit for your culture?

I was a director of a large organisation and for a period was HR director. What it taught me is that some people are never ever happy. Whatever you offer, after a short period of time they want more - or will find a way to complain. It’s relentless and in the end I realised you had to step in to it and basically call them on their unreasonableness. And be confident in your own judgment.

One example we had was we stated offering people the chance to work from home on a voluntary basis - so totally up them if they came in or wfh. A small number started arguing this meant we should pay them more for gas and electricity at home. Over and over until I basically said if it’s that much of a problem, come to the office everyday like you are entitled to. And pay the commuting costs which without doubt for 99% of the office are more than the extra cost of wfh. (Before the prices went crazy). It shut them up.

I would say that you have listened to the feedback and therefore are going to go flexible, people are now free to chose to work a 5 day week and get the full AL allocation if they want. Not one of them will, but this can be your answer every time.

Sounds like a fabulous set up to me. I suppose part of the problem is they are being told when their pretty generous time off is (one day per week for much of the year) rather than the flexibility to take the equivalent time when it suits them. Also the full time busy period partly clashes with school holidays.

Overall I think they are silly because it would be easy for the company to say everyone in then and cut the staff level accordingly!

"I would say that you have listened to the feedback and therefore are going to go flexible, people are now free to chose to work a 5 day week and get the full AL allocation if they want. Not one of them will, but this can be your answer every time." Have copied this ready for Tuesday meeting - thanks 😀

No they are allowed to be flexible when they want take it - someone has three weeks booked in this year. 16 days - still allows them 4 whole weeks plus they can flex and take 4 day weekend every second week or 5 days over a bank holiday weekend. We also only have one person with school age children (plus me!) who loves the flexibility - most have decided not to have kids strangely!

Actually, I have just read your initial op properly and have seen that they have to go 5 days a week over the summer.
Is this a full additional day? Do they get additional pay?

If that’s the case then there potentially is a problem with your contract and your employees may legally (not necessarily morally) be right

If you are counting the 5th day each week thats not worked as “paid holiday” then this needs to be in the contract. Employers are allowed to tell employees when they have to take their holiday so that could work but, without that it looks like you aren’t giving the statutory entitlement (even though you are)

Without looking at it properly I can’t give you the right answer but you probably need to take some proper advice

It sounds like, what you are doing is amazing and is a big benefit, but the contract wording is wrong.