Is this a generous holiday offer from the company?

[workingbalance]

I'm a director of a small company - 25 people. We have a 4-day working week - so 100% work / 80% of your time / 100% salary - it works for us as we are not front facing and have become more effective using digital technology and more concise in our working styles - everyone loves it (although I do work the extra day - as it is a quiet day to get my work done!). We have been doing this for two years.

For reference (although not quite of relevance to the question) - they can also work from home one day a week and apply for two weeks of the year to work remotely (some have worked from France for example). We also offer flexible time - so they can start need early/finish early or late etc up to an hour with no need for permission - and we also are generous in supporting us they we have family pressures - children and/or parents. It is 9 - 5pm with TOIL for any overtime. We work in an industry that delivers joy to people - so a lovely thing to be part of. We also provide good quality tea and coffee with biscuits freely available, provide a breakfast out once a month, and provide loads of things for free through partnerships.

However some of the team recently have complained that the holiday allowance shouldn't be pro rata for the 4 - days (it works out 4 days less a year than if it was a 5 day week - as we do work 5 days for a period when we are super busy this is obviously not pro rata) plus an extra 41 days off. We have low staff turn over and everyone is positive in their appraisals but this has thrown me somewhat as I feel it is fair, what is recommended by the 4-day working week guides and no one has complained before. It seems to stem from a couple of new people recently who have pointed out that their contract says - "You are entitled to 20 days’ holiday during each holiday year or the pro-rata equivalent if you work part-time. In addition, you are entitled to take the usual public holidays in England and Wales. The 4-day working week takes place from the 1st January until mid May, when you then return to a 5-day working week until end July. Then - 4 days for the remainder of the year"

They now feel that this is not correct as in they should get the full allowance plus the 5th day off - this came from the person who is leading on it - "I know some staff are really questioning this and want to seek time off in lieu or financial compensation for the leave they believe they haven’t had these last two years."

I am meeting the team next week but it has made me feel upset and a bit confused that they are challenging this when I feel the contract is quite clear (we verbally have discussed it in staff appraisals and how it is broken down is written on the holiday request sheet) and of course how I feel with regard to what we do to support them and provide autonomy over their working conditions.

I am happy to get a different perspective on it from other employees as I don't want my emotions not allowing me to see clearly and of course as a company director you have a certain perspective - but I feel it is fair and generous and frankly it is taking up to much of my time and energy!

Can you give me a job?? I wouldn't be complaining!!

Two things here:

1. it’s clear that 4 day week quickly becomes the new baseline employment package so won’t be perceived as “holiday” (debatable how that works in your employment contract)
2. And therefore if you expect the staff to work 5 days for a period of the year that should be taken into account and so the right “standard” package is probably more in the ~21-22 day region.

well done for pushing the bounds on your employment proposition - as they heavy is the head that wears the crown!

It is full pay - year round regardless if they work 4 or 5 days a week. That is what we agreed on as a team when we introduced it as due to the nature of what we do, we need to work 5 days at certain times - but with no reduction in pay. I don't count that 5th day not worked as paid holiday - just that they are only contracted to work 4 days for a period of the year.

I appreciate that the working might need clearing up on the contract two years down the track - but I guess it is hard not to feel upset re the language being used "that they want compensation for the 4 days they they feel they were owed last year". It just hasn't been the nature of who we are as a close knit team to date.

I agree the wording needs tightening. If you agreed it as a team perviously, perhaps revisit the exercise as a team again?

Would they prefer to be told it's five days per week, with 65 days leave, 41 of which are mandated?!?

And as for how you feel, you're the director... you need to take the emotion out of it (but I understand how you feel).

Agree with this

Am getting 23 days as a rough calculation so near enough.

I understand you’re upset, I would be too. You are being very generous and I would love to work in a company like that!

However, if your contract says they are entitled to 20 days holiday plus bank holidays - and you aren’t counting the 5th day a week off as holiday - then you are in breach of contract by only giving them 16 days. They are entitled to this and could potentially be able to claim back pay too.

You may need to consider saying in your meeting that the 5th day off a week is holiday and you are therefore giving more than the contract provides for. Either way, you are not sticking to the contract.

Ongoing, any amendment to contractual terms (eg when the 4 day week came in) has got to be amended immediately as a contract revision.

it’s going to be tough to get over this and restore the good feeling back. As a pp said, there are always one or two that ruin things.

Good luck

To put it another way - your current calculation punishes people if they want / need to take a full week off during your busier 5 day period by having to use an disproportionate allocation of their holiday pro-rated based on a 4 day per week assumption.

That may or may not be deliberate to disincentive leave during that period - but you need to decide if that position is fair / sustainable. Suspect in the longer term it probably is not

This

I used to work a five day week with 25 days holiday, I reduced to four day week and now 20 days holiday.

I think what you have offered your staff is amazing, I would love to work for a Company who were as thoughtful and caring about work life balance as you are.

I agree with previous posters who have mentioned the new staff stirring up trouble.

You need to nip this in the bud now as in my opinon it only takes one bad apple to ruin the whole barrel.

Not sure where you are based but if you need an office manager/ right hand woman with over 30 years experience in various industries please drop me a message 😁

Just FYI
If it went to tribunal the working practice will be looked at as well as the actual contract.
The tribunal might decide it’s fair due to the 4 day working week being paid as 100% pay (so, in theory a days “holiday” each week)

Statutory requirements take priority and the question will be, have they had the proper holiday entitlement in some form.

In my experience, a lot of weight is put on what the contract says (unless it’s deemed an unfair contract, obviously) and you haven’t stuck to the contract so going to tribunal is a gamble.

If I absolutely had to bet on it, I would say you would probably be ok. However, I wouldn’t want to make that bet!

Like a PP think that the way the contract is currently worded doesn’t seem ideal and could helpfully be clarified, eg to be explicit that you are counting the ‘mandatory’ days off as annual leave.

On handling, as you’re confident the interpretation taken by the colleague seeking more time off and ‘back pay’ is a minority one, would explain by email and say no to their request, with your reasons, and seek to detach from the emotional aspects of it.

Just playing devils advocate.

I'm entitled to 5.6 weeks leave a year.
So, 4 weeks of my choosing and the rest bank holidays.

If you give me 16 days, and I take a week at the end of may (5 days), a week mid June (5 days) a week early July (5 days) I only have one day left to take, and am entitled to a whole week....

I think the wording needs tightening up.

Yes this. I work FT but my leave is still expressed in hours. It’s easier to understand and then it’s up to them how they want to use those hours off - for full days or 2 hours here and there, etc. Takes the whole 4-day or 5-day issue out of it.

“You work 35 hours per week so are entitled to 160 (or whatever) hours annual leave per year”

Agree
In that case they would probably need to change the contract to say 65 days holiday with 40(or whatever) of these days to be taken weekly from (whatever the dates are) and the other 15 to be flexible.

Whilst it would still mean employees who wanted a week off in the summer would need to use 5 of these days, so would employees taking holiday on other weeks (1 mandatory plus 4 flexible) The employee taking it in the summer still wouldn’t have as many full weeks off but it’s fair and transparent.

However, I would never agree a contract with 65 days holidays as that’s way too much and there is no way of going back.

I have helped companies move from 5 days to 4 day weeks. However, they have either kept their contract hours - eg gone from 35 hours over 5 days to 35 hours over 4 days - or have dropped a few hours off the contracted hours but kept the rate of pay the same and issued new contracts. In the latter case, any 5th day then worked was paid as overtime.

What the opps company has done is amazing for the workers but, without the contract being tightened up at the time, is now a nightmare from a legal point of view

No advice but I would love to work for you!

You clearly are a fantastic and caring employer. I hope your company continues to thrive.

However, if appears that your employees squeeze five days work into four days and on a pro rata basis you're assuming that they will therefore squeeze five days of leisure into four?

I feel that you will have to give them five calendar days rather than four. You can give them as many hobnobs as they can eat, but if the five calendar days is their entitlement, they should have it.

Try not to take it personally, even the most wonderful employer cannot fail to provide statutory requirements. I would give them the extra day they're entitled to with a smile on your face. You will hopefully get even more loyalty and results back

If you work 80% for 41 weeks and 100% for 11 weeks then technically you should get 16.8 days per year (working on the statutory leave allowance).

You would then get 6.7 bank holidays pro rata.

However, if they're only actually working 80% for the 41 weeks (rather than doing 100% over 4 days) then you're already paying them in lieu of the missed bit of annual leave

If they are working compressed hours, so doing 100% of the work over those 4 day weeks, then they are correct that they should still get 20 days leave and 8 BHs, BUT they would need to use 1.25 days of annual leave for every day they wanted to take off on a 4 day week and 1 per day on a 5 day week

Either way they'd be worse off and they should quit moaning

You are right about the holiday entitlement if it was 4 days for a period and then 5 days - I roughly calculated and made it 23 days.

However, the problem is that they aren’t working 4 days compressed. They are working 4 days normal and getting full pay for the 5th day without working it.
They wouldn’t need to take 1.25 days if they booked one day off on a 4 day week as they will still get 3 days worked and 1 day paid anyway - so only need to take 1 day holiday.

Normally, when a company goes to 4 days instead of 5 they keep the contractual hours the same. Eg for 9 months of the year you work 4x10 hours days and for 3 months you work 5x8 hour days. Then you would be right and if they took one of the 4 days off they would need 10 hours holiday (1.25 days)

The ops company has been unbelievably generous by going down to 4 day weeks and still paying for the 5th day that’s not being worked.

However, this does cause a legal (not moral) problem with the contract wording to make sure statutory holiday is being given properly.

I can’t believe they are actually moaning - they have an unbelievable deal!!

Give folk an inch and they'll take a mile OP.

Thanks to everyone who have commented! Trying to take any emotional out of it (except today!) and also be open minded to the fact that the contract might need tightening up...

Just for clarity - we went for the 4 day model based on 4 days work - rather than compressed hours so not the option of 5 days work squeezed into 4 longer days - which would then be the full 28 day holiday allowance (if only offering statutory).

They now have 24 days (16 days plus 8 bank) plus an extra 3 days for a event we do which is two days but I give them an extra day for the hard work - and they can take these days when ever (because straight after the event I also allow them 1/2 days to recover which are not included in any holiday allowance!) - so effectively 27 days before the extra days off. That is not written explicitly in the contract but it is all referenced on the holiday time sheets which the contract refers to as each year the actual dates are slightly different - if that makes sense.

I am thinking of maybe annualised hours as another option - but funnily enough that hasn't been met with much enthusiasm when suggested as there is a fair bit of flex re arrival and departure - and I am more of the opinion that getting the job done is more important rather than clock watching - which annualised hours might feel like...

Ironically all this flex re staff/time all came about when I lost my job in 2000 as I was pregnant with my second and asked to go down to 4 days which was denied! I didn't want to run a company like that!

Please feel free to link to your job vacancies page so I can apply if and when anything arises ! 😂

Why not give them their annual allocation in hours. That's how it is for our part time staff. No idea why. But it works.

So if you choose to take your holidays during a five day a week spell fine you use up more hours. If not fine you use less hours.

I'd give them a bit extra if you can to be just above the standard average for your industry. So perhaps an extra four days a year (in hours).

That way everyone is happy and your workforce will remain hard working and appreciative of the good package you have for them.

I'd go back to your HR provider and ask their help to prepare for this meeting. Any misinterpreted info with people being this awkward is very likely.
Solidarity fellow director!

HR is engaged - but I was going to speak to the team Tuesday - I agree though with you, I might now wait until they reply...

Being a company director is not for the faint hearted is it! As I work away on a Sunday!