Is this a generous holiday offer from the company?

[workingbalance]

I'm a director of a small company - 25 people. We have a 4-day working week - so 100% work / 80% of your time / 100% salary - it works for us as we are not front facing and have become more effective using digital technology and more concise in our working styles - everyone loves it (although I do work the extra day - as it is a quiet day to get my work done!). We have been doing this for two years.

For reference (although not quite of relevance to the question) - they can also work from home one day a week and apply for two weeks of the year to work remotely (some have worked from France for example). We also offer flexible time - so they can start need early/finish early or late etc up to an hour with no need for permission - and we also are generous in supporting us they we have family pressures - children and/or parents. It is 9 - 5pm with TOIL for any overtime. We work in an industry that delivers joy to people - so a lovely thing to be part of. We also provide good quality tea and coffee with biscuits freely available, provide a breakfast out once a month, and provide loads of things for free through partnerships.

However some of the team recently have complained that the holiday allowance shouldn't be pro rata for the 4 - days (it works out 4 days less a year than if it was a 5 day week - as we do work 5 days for a period when we are super busy this is obviously not pro rata) plus an extra 41 days off. We have low staff turn over and everyone is positive in their appraisals but this has thrown me somewhat as I feel it is fair, what is recommended by the 4-day working week guides and no one has complained before. It seems to stem from a couple of new people recently who have pointed out that their contract says - "You are entitled to 20 days’ holiday during each holiday year or the pro-rata equivalent if you work part-time. In addition, you are entitled to take the usual public holidays in England and Wales. The 4-day working week takes place from the 1st January until mid May, when you then return to a 5-day working week until end July. Then - 4 days for the remainder of the year"

They now feel that this is not correct as in they should get the full allowance plus the 5th day off - this came from the person who is leading on it - "I know some staff are really questioning this and want to seek time off in lieu or financial compensation for the leave they believe they haven’t had these last two years."

I am meeting the team next week but it has made me feel upset and a bit confused that they are challenging this when I feel the contract is quite clear (we verbally have discussed it in staff appraisals and how it is broken down is written on the holiday request sheet) and of course how I feel with regard to what we do to support them and provide autonomy over their working conditions.

I am happy to get a different perspective on it from other employees as I don't want my emotions not allowing me to see clearly and of course as a company director you have a certain perspective - but I feel it is fair and generous and frankly it is taking up to much of my time and energy!

Are they allowed to take annual leave during the period you're all working 5 day weeks? I think that will make a difference as if they are, they're having to use more annual leave for two weeks off than if they wanted two weeks annual leave any other time of year.

I think they're being very cheeky though 🙈

They are taking the piss

If they want full time holiday then tell them they work 5 days a week

I have learnt that whatever you give people and however generous you are, there are always people that will complain and feel like they are hard done by

Jesus.
what piss takers!

i had never even heard of this sort of entitled nonsense until I started in tech where it is honestly jaw dropping.

I’d def consult with HR but my message would be very much a “ I want to reiterate the policy is…”
ie. double down and review the before v now differences showing how generous the policy is.

trouble makers I’d have separate 1:1s with show them the policy and tell them politely and with HR in the room that if they aren’t happy this isn’t a prison. And they are more than welcome to leave and find another employer with more generous/agreeable employment terms.

I think this is a really complex working arrangement

The 4 day weeks are they doing 100% of the work of a 5 day week? Or 80%? If they are doing 100% of the work then in a 5 day week they are doing 120%?

11 weeks a year they are working 5 days a week, Presumably this is summer? I.e. when everyone wants to take annual leave. Are they allowed to take annual leave then?

Very sensible for it to be pro rata since they still have the fifth day every week to use as holiday. They're taking the piss! They get 52 extra days per year!

I work part-time and my holiday is pro rata. It never seems like that much until you factor in the rest of the week when I don't work.

I think you should remind them how lucky they are.

this came from the person who is leading on it - "I know some staff are really questioning this

In my experience, when someone says, "some people are saying..." they really mean that they are saying and that they are trying to get other people on side as well. Tell the staff to come and talk to you individually and directly, but that you are minded to stick with the terms of the contract.

No it is 80% during the 4 day week - 100% pay.

Yes they can take time off when working 5 days.

I understand it sounds complex - but it isn't mean to be - just trying to be supportive of a healthy work life balance - in fairness hardly anyone is ever off sick - so I think it is working in that respect!

Oh my god. Sign me up

Yes that is my gut feeling too - as it only arisen since they started just over 3 months ago - no one before has ever had an issue with it. Ironically they were brought in to support the growth of the company - this has taken so much of my time that there has been no chance of anything growing lately!

Yes, I will ask people to come and talk to me - we have always been a very open harmonious team...

So the legal minimum annual leave a year is 20 days plus 8 paid bank holidays.
Are they getting the paid bank holidays or, this week coming, are they all expected to have their non-working day on the Monday and then work Tues - Fri or, if for example Friday is your regular non-working day, do they work a 3 day week during the upcoming week? Taking this example further, if Friday is your regular non-working day, what happens at Easter with Good Friday?
Also, they are legally entitled to a pro rata equivalent of days off for the 6 or so weeks that they're working 5 day weeks.
You can't deem the 41 non-working days in the 4 day weeks as holiday when they're not holiday. If they were, people would be free to work 5 day weeks and take the 41 days when they chose throughout the year. I work in a traditional Mon-Fri 9-5 environment. Saturdays & Sundays aren't holidays for me.

Also, do they get paid overtime for the weeks they're working 5 day weeks? Or does their salary reflect this working pattern and they get paid 1/12th per month? What happens for those who join or leave during the year? For example, if I worked July - April, would I get paid 10/12 of someone who worked the whole year even though I didn't work any of the 5 day weeks? What happens if someone starts on 1st May and leaves on 31st July? Do they get paid more?
I can see what you're trying to achieve but your contract will need to be very carefully worded.

No - next week - it will be a 3 day week :)
All bank holidays paid - it is a normal full time (5 day) pay for everyone all year round. Ironically including the person who only wanted to work 4 days when they joined!
Easter is part of Bank Holidays - included in holidays - as Christmas might be one year.
Yes the holidays are adjusted upwards when they work the 5 day period.
They do have the flexibility to work 5 days and and us ether extra days as and when it works for them (within reason of course) - one working parent does exactly that.

How lucky that they have shown you that they dont appear to fit your company culture so soon in their employment

No - not overtime for the 5 day weeks, just like not less for the 4 day weeks.

All pay is based on a 5 day week regardless of when they start or finish during the year - but I see what you re saying. Everyone is employed permanently so it hasn't been a situation like that - as in short term contract.

They sound a bit grabby. I think you have to be absolutely transparent in showing them how the calculations work - not just direct them to the government website, but demonstrate how you arrived at your result using that benchmark. Do you currently offer a buy back/ sell back system for annual leave? If not, you could introduce it and then people could buy extra time if they need it (and vice versa) might make them think a bit differently?! You sound a fab employer, I would gladly work for you!

I think you need to get an employment lawyer to review the policy and give advice based on this. Then circulate it.

Not saying you are wrong just best to get a third party to confirm the legal aspect of it and your team can consult with a union / ACAS if they still have issues.

This is the problem with being a generous employer - give people an inch and they take a fucking mile (half sarcastic).

Yes, you can deem the 41 days as holidays as they are being paid a full day for it. In effect they are being paid the full week of Monday to Friday but only working Monday-thursday.
So they get a day paid for that they haven’t worked.

Your working set up is completely different as you don’t get paid for the Saturday and Sunday!

Legally an employer can stipulate when an employee takes holiday. A lot of offices do this, for example, when they close for a week over Christmas

So, whilst very unusual, the company could say an employee has to take one days holiday a week for 41 weeks of the year

Not saying they should, but they could!

Also, the 20 plus 8 entitlement is based on a 5 day week so they wouldn’t need extra when they worked the 5 day weeks.

Exactly this. People take the piss. Our company went through a radical shake up a few years ago and some of the smaller things involved free food, free coffee machines, vending machines etc etc. Great for a few weeks or months and then people became unbelievably entitled, wanting more more more, different varieties of X Y and Z. In the end it was harsh conversations around you have this, amazing offer, or we go back to nothing.

On your original post you just said 16 days holiday.
If it’s 16 plus bank holidays you should be fine.
Holiday will be calculated at (depending on exact dates) 41 weeks of 4 day working and 11 weeks of 5 day working
I make it roughly 23 days of entitlement.

If that’s the case then your holiday calculations are right and it’s the contract wording that’s causing the problem.

OK forget flexible time - that's pretty standard for office based jobs now.
And the two weeks remote....that's not time off and no- good if you have kids
Forget tea and coffee and breakfast....all lovely but don't make up for a good holiday policy....its just lip service/window dressing.

A 4 day week is fab - truly...but it's not flexible (I assume?) If you have school age kids that extra day off each week doesn't help you cover school holidays for example. Doesn't help you take holidays with loved ones who work a 5 day week.
In fact if all your friends work FT it has somewhat limited use....house work, gym, hair appointments and hobbies alone.

So they get 20 days leave....that's fairly low. I get 30, OH gets 28. Plus bank hols (not including)
Pro-rata that would be 23-24days, plus extra for the 11 weeks they work PT. Roughly they accrus 1 day leave for every 10 days worked...so I would say at least an extra day for that 11 weeks

So either 20 + 2 = 22 days plus bank hols
Or 24+1 which is 25 days

This.

Especially the senior person, you need support not stiring.

Now I know they get bank holidays off, this is what I would do…

At the meeting say the contract clearly specifies it’s pro rata for part time working.

Say they work 11 weeks at 5 days (obviously get the amount of weeks completely right) so for these weeks they are entitled to 11/52 weeks of full entitlement.

For the other 41 weeks they work part time. Whilst they get paid for the additional day this is a discretionary benefit and they are essentially working part time. For this period they are entitled to 41/52 weeks of pro rata entitlement.

Use the calculator to get the proper figures but it is roughly going to come out as
5.9 +17.7 = 23.6

They have 24 days

That way you are saying your contract is right and they have forgotten about the 4 days counting as pro rata

Then do what a previous poster said and say everyone can go back to 5 days every week for the same money throughout if they want.. !

Tell them they get 1 day a week off at full pay every week.

Please may I have a job in your company?

20 days plus bank holidays (pro rated for PT) is normal for most companies and is the statutory requirement

Whilst some companies obviously give more, they don’t have to

I certainly would not be advising a generous company (who gives their employees 100% of 5 days pay for working 4 days) to give more holiday than the statutory entitlement!