To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

Yes, the Labour Party didn’t seem to understand that charitable status and VAT status weren’t linked until a few months ago when the change in stance was announced. It’s no wonder most people don’t understand it fully when the party proposing the policy don’t understand it!

They can’t be a private company paying out profits to shareholders if they are a charity, most of the independent special schools are private companies rather than charities.

education is a charitable aim so it’s fairly easy for a school to meet that if it is a charity. They also need to prove public benefit so that is things like bursaries, letting the community use its facilities etc

Most private schools aren’t charities.

Yes they are

Around 70% of private schools are charities.

@Morph22010@Ozanj government figures suggest it’s around half which are charities.

https://inews.co.uk/news/labours-u-turn-on-private-schools-charitable-status-leaves-plenty-of-options-to-avoid-tax-2648699

It won't make the divide bigger, it'll just change where the divide is. People who use private schools really aren't the middle anyway, it's only 6% of children and most of them are from the wealthiest families. I think some people on MN have a very skewed view on what a normal income is.

That figure rises to closer to 20% of all children are privately educated at sixth form. I think state school sixth forms are the ones that will see the biggest jump in numbers. Sixth form is also when parents pay the highest fees so the 20% will bite the hardest.

Yes, totally true. Almost 20% of children over 16 currently attend private schools. State sixth forms and colleges are going to see a massive jump. Also because of the push for universities to prioritise applicants from the state sector.

Current law defines education as a charitable purpose, so the charitable efforts are not minimal.

The Labour Policy doesn't really factor in the number of forces children in private education. Our local Independent school 40% of students are forces children (Army / Airforce / Navy), so bills are predominately paid by the Gov anyway.

It will have a profound effect on forces families if they don't make them exempt. They really haven't thought this through at all.

In 2022/23 there were 4210 MoD children and 510 FDCO children on CEA in UK private schools out of 600,000 or so total student numbers.

DoY Royal Military Dover state boarding school is the only school with more than 40 MoD CEA students attending which has anything like 40% of the pupil numbers (210 out of 510 pupils). Parents do not pay tuition fees, just boarding fees, and boarding being classified as ‘welfare services’ is likely to be VAT exempt.

Educating for a few to families that can afford it isn’t charitable in my view.

The nurseries at my DC old school were few and far between and mostly given to families that were already close to being able to afford it. All middle class.

There was no allowing community use of facilities.

Our local private provision here does nothing.

In my view education of the privileged few for a fee isn’t charity. It’s a service. A service we chose to pay for. The law here is wrong but would be very complicated to change it. Hence why the shift to simply adding VAT. Much quicker and achieves similar.

This is absolute nonsense.

We have some state schools whose pupil intake is socially and academically skewed by catchment.

But mainstream state schools, no matter what their catchment, have half the number of teachers per head compared to private schools, because they are only funded to the tune of at most around 7K per child, per year and many have huge and increasing debts.

It’s not a case of simply added vat though there will be all sorts of added complications with people now having to pay vat for things they didn’t before if education is made taxable. It is far from simple

Have a look at their accounts which are publically available on the charity commission website if they are a charity. There will be a section in the trustees report called public benefit which will give details of what they are doing to meet the public benefit criteria, if they are lying and aren’t doing those things report them to the charity commission

Yes, but that is easier and quicker than changing the law. No policy change is easy it simple. There are always lots of factors to consider. No incoming Government can do all of that whilst not in power either.

Is changing vat legislation not changing the law then?

The latest polls suggest as many as 40% will be forced to state schools, I think it will be around 30% because anyone who has a child about to sit their exams will find a way to pay until their child has finished them. . People keep making the assumption it’s the wealthy that use private but those are the elite schools not the local private schools. In any event it will no way reap the money that Labour expects as most that can will do the fees in advance scheme and avoid paying the vat anyway.

The survey the Daily Mail used for their 40% headline didn’t use a representative sample and didn’t support the DM headline either.

https://x.com/danneidle/status/1797211773117870387?s=46&t=9OMdEqdvwzQElzI55ayjwg

So by your logic University also offer a service, are not a charity and so University fees should also incur VAT for the degrees they offer.

Nursery fees should also be vatable on that logic, people need to be careful what they wish for

Nursery fees have VAT exemption under welfare provision, not education provision.

It’s unlikely that university fees would be treated in the same way as independent schools - there isn't a free alternative to university, and tuition fees are basically dictated by the Government.