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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

School attendance - is this allowed?

270 replies

UndertheCedartree · 23/05/2024 15:18

My DD is in Y7 at mainstream secondary and is autistic and very anxious.

HOY keeps chopping and changing plans for my DD with no consistency or communication. Essentially, on my side of it school are just making things worse.

As an example today there is a Reward Trip for those with over 100 achievement points and less than 8 behaviour points. My DD has 130 achievement points and 0 behaviour points but has been excluded from the trip as they felt they would need to send an LSA which they didn't want to. At our last meeting I expressed how unhappy and left out she was feeling as all her friends are going on the trip and naturally excitedly chatting about it at school as well as out of school. I was told by her HOY that they were planning a Reward Day at school for those who met the criteria but couldn't go on the trip for whatever reason. I've been asking for information about this but only been informed this morning that they decided to not do the Reward Day in the end!!

Her HOY has now decided to implement a new plan - I've not agreed with any of it as I find it inappropriate but the specific thing I wanted to ask about is his plan for me to bring DD in the morning and if they can't get her into school within 5 minutes I have to take her home. Presumably if I bring her in they can mark her as in on their attendance figures, but don't have to bother with giving her an education. Apparently I should then bring her back for afternoon school and if they can't get her in within 5 minutes I have to take her home again! So their attendance looks great but my DD gets no education. Is this allowed?

OP posts:
FloofyBird · 27/05/2024 14:00

Teachers should know they must follow EHCPs. They don't necessarily need the same knowledge as slt, attendance. Sencos etc,

As for if everyone knew the law, maybe Sen children wouldn't be failed so often, maybe teachers wouldn't be under so much pressure because they would get the help and funding they need. Maybe the gov would be more inclined to do something about funding or how schools are run or the expectations put on schools and children these days.

Irisginger · 27/05/2024 14:03

FloofyBird · 27/05/2024 13:56

@CrepuscularWeasel well, sencos and slt absolutely should know the law in these areas and everyone in a school should understand the equality act imo. Ignorance is no defence in law unfortunately.

I agree, public servants need to understand the law as it pertains to their roles, no excuses. Not sure if it is academisation, but there seems to be an increasing attitude from SLTs, that it can be ignored where inconvenient.

CrepuscularWeasel · 27/05/2024 14:18

FloofyBird · 27/05/2024 13:56

@CrepuscularWeasel well, sencos and slt absolutely should know the law in these areas and everyone in a school should understand the equality act imo. Ignorance is no defence in law unfortunately.

You are right, SENCos should know, and should have time to disseminate it to other school staff, but every SENCo I’ve ever met has been massively overworked.

UndertheCedartree · 28/05/2024 00:54

jo19 · 26/05/2024 17:51

Push for an EHCP, you can apply yourself directly with the your local authority. It's time consuming but worth it in the end.
I would also suggest speaking to the school SENCo, and also the head. If things don't improve then write to the school governors.
Does the area you live in have a local NAS group?
Excluding your daughter from a trip because she is autistic is discrimination. They can't have it both ways saying they can't accommodate her on the trip because of staffing levels and then saying she doesn't need an EHCP because they can meet her needs.

I'm not sure about NAS group. I will look into it.

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 28/05/2024 00:58

CrepuscularWeasel · 27/05/2024 13:39

I feel for them though. I struggle to manage a single child with SN, often in a considerable better environment than a classroom. How the hell does a single teacher manage to meet loads of children’s needs, especially when several of them are contradictory, whilst also doing all the other things a teacher has to do, with little or no support? It all school staff and all parents knew the law there would be absolute chaos as, in no way, is there the budget or workforce to properly accommodate every child’s needs. If we did manage it, though, the decrease in many other budgets (social care, prisons, health) would go down massively in the future.

And is it teachers’ fault they don’t know about SEND law? They are clearly no adequately trained in it with refreshers as needed. With their workload is it any wonder they are not educating themselves on this?

Don't pretend you're an expert, though if you actually aren't.

OP posts:
sashh · 28/05/2024 07:54

UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 11:41

What I want - I think a really good start would be to have the same person come to meet my DD at the same place and the same time for rest of the summer term.

I don't know your DD but would it be better to have two people? So if X phones in sick then Y can meet your DD?

T1Dmama · 28/05/2024 10:14

UndertheCedartree · 28/05/2024 00:58

Don't pretend you're an expert, though if you actually aren't.

@CrepuscularWeasel actually yes school staff should know the SENDCO law. Something as simple as disability discrimination would be learned as part of their training and would be covered at the inset days! Diversity & Discrimination are key things covered in all professionals working with vulnerable people.
Ignorance is NEVER an excuse for discrimination .
Also they would have dealt with these issues so many times before, often they are just trying it on to see if they can get away with it… my friends child has an EHCP and school is trying to say it’s irrelevant and only a guide… yet they have other children in the school whose parents have already kicked up a stink and enforced the EHCP to the letter!…. So yes they know the laws, they’ll just try not to follow it and cut corners as much as a parent will allow. We shouldn’t have to constantly fight for our children’s rights to be enforced but sadly we do!

T1Dmama · 28/05/2024 10:33

@UndertheCedartree What I want - I think a really good start would be to have the same person come to meet my DD at the same place and the same time for rest of the summer term.

Does your daughter have a care plan? I’m not sure you get to do a careplan in your case, my DD’s SEN is medical so her careplan is drawn up by me and signed off by her keyworker who in our case is a senior nurse practitioner … if you see a health care professional and receive support they should be supporting you to write a care plan which you can put in it that your DD needs to be met by a member of staff daily to ensure she is supported to access her education…. As someone else said this does need to be 2 staff so if one is off sick there is still cover. (Maybe they could alternate days so DD gets used to both)… all these details need including in the care plan because again the CP is a legal document and has to be followed by law.

My advice would be to :

  • Apply for an EHCP - you can do this on the local authority website (you don’t need school initially)
  • Gather all information / proof you have that they can’t / aren’t supporting her SEN / she isn’t able to go on trips/ o ly has 5 minutes to get into school or is excluded etc
  • Write an official complaint to the head and in that request an urgent support meeting and list the people you want to attend - tutor, SENDCO, attendance officer, your DD’s keyworker if she has one. Etc
Do all this in half term so that the head gets back from break and has to deal with it straight away… my friend wouldn’t follow my advice and refused to complain, her DD is now approaching the end of year 9 and is only in school in school a couple of hours a day because they won’t follow her EHCP, has gone from being an exceptional student and being at greater depth in most subjects to being behind and not hitting any targets.. PLEASE act now and keep fighting.. we shouldn’t have to but no one else is going to fight / advocate for our DC’s
T1Dmama · 28/05/2024 10:35

Sorry that should read “I’m not sure WHO you get to do a careplan in your case”

CrepuscularWeasel · 28/05/2024 11:03

T1Dmama · 28/05/2024 10:14

@CrepuscularWeasel actually yes school staff should know the SENDCO law. Something as simple as disability discrimination would be learned as part of their training and would be covered at the inset days! Diversity & Discrimination are key things covered in all professionals working with vulnerable people.
Ignorance is NEVER an excuse for discrimination .
Also they would have dealt with these issues so many times before, often they are just trying it on to see if they can get away with it… my friends child has an EHCP and school is trying to say it’s irrelevant and only a guide… yet they have other children in the school whose parents have already kicked up a stink and enforced the EHCP to the letter!…. So yes they know the laws, they’ll just try not to follow it and cut corners as much as a parent will allow. We shouldn’t have to constantly fight for our children’s rights to be enforced but sadly we do!

My child also has an EHCP, and ultimately mainstream turned out not to be the best place for him, but I can honestly say that whilst in mainstream we came across some very kind, able teachers, in a general sense, who had little knowledge of the Children’s and Families Act or Equality Law. Ideally yes they would, but of all the things they have to do I would rather they concentrate on being proficient, empathetic educators to everyone in their class and let others (SENCo, SLT) guide them on the ins and outs of the law, as they cannot know everything and do everything. They are only human. The system and the funding of the systems lets down teachers as well as pupils.

HandaFae · 28/05/2024 11:15

They should also not be expecting her in school for ‘5 minutes’ for registration and not doing anything else.

You could argue that this is a part time timetable that has not been agreed. A part time timetable that is agreed has clear timescales, is short term and has to work to improve attendance.
See page 18 of government guide.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63049617e90e0729e63d3953/Workingtogether_to_improve_school_attendance.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63049617e90e0729e63d3953/Working_together_to_improve_school_attendance.pdf

Proserphina · 28/05/2024 13:08

But part time timetable are for the benefit of the child, to support their reintegration, by gradually increasing time in school, working slowly to increase a child's tolerance.

Asking a child to turn up, just so you can give them an attendance mark and send them home again, is nothing to do with meeting the child's needs, but potentially quite a lot to do with massaging school attendance figures.

FloofyBird · 28/05/2024 18:10

You are right, SENCos should know, and should have time to disseminate it to other school staff, but every SENCo I’ve ever met has been massively overworked.

So are multiple other professionals. It doesn't mean they all get to ignore the law.

UndertheCedartree · 30/05/2024 16:43

sashh · 28/05/2024 07:54

I don't know your DD but would it be better to have two people? So if X phones in sick then Y can meet your DD?

Yes, it would definitely be good if there was a back up person. I would think this could be one of the LSAs. There are 2 DD is particularly comfortable with. I will bring this up and see what is said as the LSAs seem happy to do things but then the latest thing is the SEN department can't be involved in DD arriving at school. But yes, that is a very good point.

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 30/05/2024 16:47

T1Dmama · 28/05/2024 10:33

@UndertheCedartree What I want - I think a really good start would be to have the same person come to meet my DD at the same place and the same time for rest of the summer term.

Does your daughter have a care plan? I’m not sure you get to do a careplan in your case, my DD’s SEN is medical so her careplan is drawn up by me and signed off by her keyworker who in our case is a senior nurse practitioner … if you see a health care professional and receive support they should be supporting you to write a care plan which you can put in it that your DD needs to be met by a member of staff daily to ensure she is supported to access her education…. As someone else said this does need to be 2 staff so if one is off sick there is still cover. (Maybe they could alternate days so DD gets used to both)… all these details need including in the care plan because again the CP is a legal document and has to be followed by law.

My advice would be to :

  • Apply for an EHCP - you can do this on the local authority website (you don’t need school initially)
  • Gather all information / proof you have that they can’t / aren’t supporting her SEN / she isn’t able to go on trips/ o ly has 5 minutes to get into school or is excluded etc
  • Write an official complaint to the head and in that request an urgent support meeting and list the people you want to attend - tutor, SENDCO, attendance officer, your DD’s keyworker if she has one. Etc
Do all this in half term so that the head gets back from break and has to deal with it straight away… my friend wouldn’t follow my advice and refused to complain, her DD is now approaching the end of year 9 and is only in school in school a couple of hours a day because they won’t follow her EHCP, has gone from being an exceptional student and being at greater depth in most subjects to being behind and not hitting any targets.. PLEASE act now and keep fighting.. we shouldn’t have to but no one else is going to fight / advocate for our DC’s

Thank you so much and I will continue to fight.

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 30/05/2024 16:49

CrepuscularWeasel · 28/05/2024 11:03

My child also has an EHCP, and ultimately mainstream turned out not to be the best place for him, but I can honestly say that whilst in mainstream we came across some very kind, able teachers, in a general sense, who had little knowledge of the Children’s and Families Act or Equality Law. Ideally yes they would, but of all the things they have to do I would rather they concentrate on being proficient, empathetic educators to everyone in their class and let others (SENCo, SLT) guide them on the ins and outs of the law, as they cannot know everything and do everything. They are only human. The system and the funding of the systems lets down teachers as well as pupils.

The trouble in this case is the HOY not listening to the SEN department.

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 30/05/2024 16:52

Proserphina · 28/05/2024 13:08

But part time timetable are for the benefit of the child, to support their reintegration, by gradually increasing time in school, working slowly to increase a child's tolerance.

Asking a child to turn up, just so you can give them an attendance mark and send them home again, is nothing to do with meeting the child's needs, but potentially quite a lot to do with massaging school attendance figures.

Exactly. The HOY has made it very clear his concern is purely with regard to attendance and punctuality not the welfare of my DD. Even the attendance officer told me she'd rather DD came in late than not come in at all, yet the HOY has said this is unacceptable.

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 30/05/2024 16:53

FloofyBird · 28/05/2024 18:10

You are right, SENCos should know, and should have time to disseminate it to other school staff, but every SENCo I’ve ever met has been massively overworked.

So are multiple other professionals. It doesn't mean they all get to ignore the law.

I do hate being overworked being used as an excuse. I'm a nurse, I'm overworked too. Doesn't mean I can do as I please.

OP posts:
Mummy2024 · 01/06/2024 01:51

UndertheCedartree · 30/05/2024 16:53

I do hate being overworked being used as an excuse. I'm a nurse, I'm overworked too. Doesn't mean I can do as I please.

If the trip thing happens again, bring up with them immediately that she's being discriminated against, raise it with a person you are comfortable with such as the senco in a calm and rational way. She will disseminate your feelings to the relevant people that you would rather not deal with such as the HOY. Don't be afraid to ask that he no longer be involved in your DD's attendance either, as his attitude is incompatible with her required needs and he is sending her home after 5 mins of upset. His refusal to include trained sencos in improving her attendance is a barrier to her attendance and is incompatible to her needs.

He cannot demand your son bring her to school. He has absolutely no authority to enforce a caring role onto your under 18 year old child. This is an unreasonable ask and is an extemely unfair responsibility to put on a young person. Taking her the odd time is one thing, daily is unreasonable he has an education of his own to achieve and that will be made harder if he's left his sister in bits at the front desk.

If your summoned to court or fined for her attendance down the line, attend and explain the situation and all you have done to get her there. Explain everything HOY has done as a barrier. Appeal any fine in writing with an explanation and evidence. If you win the appeal they will be forced to record future absence appropriately.

Good luck at your meeting next week let us know how it goes.

Proserphina · 01/06/2024 07:42

@Mummy2024 :Just on attendance, I would be trying to head off any risk of formal action at this stage by making very sure her health situation is well documented, and a formal request made to the Head to review markings now, which OP is already on with in any case? No one needs the stress of legal action.

The regulations on register markings and accompanying guidance are clear. If school are not following them, even after a reminder of what the law says, and having followed the formal complaints procedure with the Head (who is the decision maker in law), (copied to the SEND Governor, Academy chain (if applic), and Director of Childrens Services at the LA), I'd be writing to DfE. https://www.gov.uk/complain-to-dfe

Complain about a school to the Department for Education

Complain to the Department for Education (DfE) about a school or how DfE handled your complaint if you’ve made one.

https://www.gov.uk/complain-to-dfe

EliflurtleAndTheInfiniteMadness · 01/06/2024 08:09

UndertheCedartree · 23/05/2024 15:46

Yes, thank you, it isn't is it?

The HOY has very fixed ideas. Essentially he sees me as the problem. She is too attached to me and once she is in school 'she is fine.' Other members of staff have told me that she isn't fine, though.

Even if she did seem completely fine at school that wouldn't mean she was, has HOY really never heard of masking? My DD masks a lot at school, all it means is that the effect comes out later, it doesn't mean she's coping.

UndertheCedartree · 01/06/2024 23:56

EliflurtleAndTheInfiniteMadness · 01/06/2024 08:09

Even if she did seem completely fine at school that wouldn't mean she was, has HOY really never heard of masking? My DD masks a lot at school, all it means is that the effect comes out later, it doesn't mean she's coping.

Exactly. And considering HOY has such a 'deep understanding of autism' you would have thought he'd know all about masking.

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 03/06/2024 19:37

Update
I've put the request in for the EHCP assessment. Also we are having our own 'Reward Trip' at the weekend! 😊

This is my draft email to complain about the disability discrimination. Could anyone tell me if it is ok?

Dear [headteacher]

Re: Formal complaint (Disability Discrimination)

I wanted to bring to your attention what I believe to be Disability Discrimination (Equality Act 2010) after taking advice. My daughter is autistic and has related anxiety. It was confirmed to me that E had enough achievement points ,by her HOY, to qualify for the Reward Trip. However I was told that due to E's autism the HOY felt she needed an LSA to go on the trip and they could not provide that. Therefore, my daughter was excluded from the trip and unable to fully take part in school life due to her autism. She was treated less favourably because of her disability. All of her friends were going on the trip and she was very unhappy at school for some time as naturally the girls would excitedly talk about the trip. I note your SEND policy says 'Students with special educational needs join in the full range of school activities.'

Further to this, I was told there would be a 'Reward day' as an alternative for those girls eligible for the trip who could not go for whatever reason. This was to be a strategy to help E with her feelings of being left out. However, this was dropped without myself being informed or indeed an alternative strategy put in place. Due to me only finding this out on the morning and unable to prepare my daughter who like many with autism becomes very dysregulated if plans change she was unable to come into school due to her anxiety. The HOY insisted she would be marked down as 'unauthorised' despite guidance for schools to authorise and mark as I if the absence is due to illness (mental as well as physical.)

Mr P has also put a plan in to place which amounts to illegally excluding E from school. He has said that if staff are unable to get E into class after 5 minutes then I will have to take her home. I am aware that only a head teacher can exclude a pupil and only for disciplinary reasons, not because of their SEN so am concerned as to if you are aware of this plan? This can also be seen as Disability Discrimination under the Equality Act (2010.) I'm sure you agree that E is entitled to a full time education like any other child.

I unfortunately feel I need to complain about some further actions of E's HOY which I will do separately as I just wanted to highlight the Disability Discrimination in this email.

I have faith that this will be looked into and that working together we can resolve the issues.

I look forward to your response,

Yours sincerely,

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 03/06/2024 20:20

Anyone?

OP posts:
OliveWah · 03/06/2024 21:10

@UndertheCedartree - I've only just found your thread, but wanted to say that the letter you've written is excellent. You're doing a great job of fighting your DD's corner!

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