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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

School attendance - is this allowed?

270 replies

UndertheCedartree · 23/05/2024 15:18

My DD is in Y7 at mainstream secondary and is autistic and very anxious.

HOY keeps chopping and changing plans for my DD with no consistency or communication. Essentially, on my side of it school are just making things worse.

As an example today there is a Reward Trip for those with over 100 achievement points and less than 8 behaviour points. My DD has 130 achievement points and 0 behaviour points but has been excluded from the trip as they felt they would need to send an LSA which they didn't want to. At our last meeting I expressed how unhappy and left out she was feeling as all her friends are going on the trip and naturally excitedly chatting about it at school as well as out of school. I was told by her HOY that they were planning a Reward Day at school for those who met the criteria but couldn't go on the trip for whatever reason. I've been asking for information about this but only been informed this morning that they decided to not do the Reward Day in the end!!

Her HOY has now decided to implement a new plan - I've not agreed with any of it as I find it inappropriate but the specific thing I wanted to ask about is his plan for me to bring DD in the morning and if they can't get her into school within 5 minutes I have to take her home. Presumably if I bring her in they can mark her as in on their attendance figures, but don't have to bother with giving her an education. Apparently I should then bring her back for afternoon school and if they can't get her in within 5 minutes I have to take her home again! So their attendance looks great but my DD gets no education. Is this allowed?

OP posts:
MsCheeryble · 24/05/2024 08:09

Seashor · 23/05/2024 16:06

I don’t think it’s up to school to get her into school, I think that’s down to you. As far as the trip is concerned if it isn’t suitable for your daughter as outlined on a risk assessment then I can’t see that they are discriminating. They have said that they will be offering an alternative that is suitable. I’ve not taken pupils before for all types of reasons. If it’s my signature on that risk assessment and I can’t manage a ‘risk’ then it isn’t happening.

But this school is claiming it can manage OP's daughter. If that were not the case, they would surely have applied for an EHCP long ago.

Bringbackthebeaver · 24/05/2024 08:12

UndertheCedartree · 23/05/2024 15:31

No, she hasn't. She got her autism diagnosis in January this year. School said she doesn't need/won't get an EHCP as they can meet her needs.

Well they're not meeting her needs though, are they? They are actively discriminating against her disability. You should demand an EHCP.

MsCheeryble · 24/05/2024 08:16

T1Dmama · 23/05/2024 16:56

I’d be forwarding this email to the head teacher and stating that this is manipulation of attendance figures and denying your DD an education that she is legally entitled to.
The school trip is absolutely disability discrimination and by not allowing her to attend they’ve broken the law!

It's not just manipulation of attendance figures, it's a string of unlawful exclusions of OP's daughter. It's quite weird that this HoY thinks the attendance figures trump over complying with the law.

Bringbackthebeaver · 24/05/2024 08:20

MsCheeryble · 24/05/2024 08:07

Why do you understand the school trip? Leaving a child out of a school trip because they have a disability that you choose not to make reasonable adjustments for is clear discrimination. They can't claim it's an unreasonable adjustment, given that they say that they can meet her needs.

This.

It's also humiliating for her to have to stay at school with kids who had negative behaviour points etc. just because she has a disability (which, it sounds like, could actually have been managed quite reasonably on a trip by putting an LSA in place or letting OP go with her).

It is unlawful discrimination on the basis that she has autism - it's not OK.

Having said that, I also think that giving out school trips on the basis of good achievements/ behaviour is not the best way of managing things either. The school approach generally doesn't sound great to me.

UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 10:18

So my to-do list is:
Email Attendance officer to update on DD going in to school this morning/plan for after half term
Ask LEA for an EHC assessment
Email Attendance officer/HOY/SEN about incorrectly marking DD's absence as unauthorised
Read/research using the links everyone has provided
Make a complaint against the HOY
Make a complaint about the trip

For the complaint about the HOY my main points are:
Misrepresents himself as an autism expert with no need of SEN input
Tried to insist my DS brings DD in
Effective exclusion/manipulating attendance figures with '5 min rule'
Offering Reward Day as a strategy to help DD with feeling left out, then quietly dropping it without letting me know/another strategy in place
Not applying for an EHCP assessment when it was clear the school were struggling to meet her needs
Not sticking to agreed plans
Misrepresenting DD as being 'fine' once in school

Then complaint about trip
It is disability discrimination that reasonable adjustments were not put in place for DD to attend the trip.

Does this seem right or should I put about the Reward Day in the email about the trip?

My head is swimming! I'm autistic myself and have a mental illness so I do find it quite overwhelming.

This is my email to the attendance officer - is it ok?

Happily, E managed to go to lessons with Mrs P this morning.

I'm aware that the Monday after a holiday is usually very difficult for E.l suggest we do the same plan as we had for this morning and if there are any problems I'll let you know.

I would also like to have a meeting with yourself,
E's Learning mentor and the SEN department early on after half term as I think it is important for us all to be on the same page and for a good plan to be in place to ensure not just that E is able to come into school but that she is happy and learning once she is there. I really want to avoid any more knee jerk reactions with the ensuing trauma to E and be able to keep things consistent going forward.

Hope you have a nice half term,

OP posts:
Proserphina · 24/05/2024 11:11

OP, in terms of the bottom of your list, if you talk to EASS about both the trip and attendance they can send you template letters in respect of the disability discrimination aspects. (They can advise as to whether the trip exclusion was potentially direct discrimination (for which there is no 'unreasonable' defence) or indirect discrimination (where the legal test would be whether the school's actions were a proportionate means of a legitimate aim). As PPs have said there are questions here about failure to make reasonable adjustments, and also whether the unlawful exclusions constitute either direct discrimination or indirect discrimination (eg. discrimination arising from a disability (if DD is placed at a substantial disadvantage due to the school respond to behaviour arising from a disability (eg attendance difficulties) or again by failure to make reasonable adjustments).

In terms of attendance regs, Not Fine in School have chapter and verse on their website.

Having said all of that, the question sitting underneath this is what do you want to achieve? In addition to the EHCP, how do you want school's behaviour towards your daughter to change in the short to medium terms? It always helps if you can describe this tangibly and positively - so not just 'desist in x because it is causing y difficulties', but also, start doing x instead as this should deliver y benefits to daughter and school'?

UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 11:24

Proserphina · 24/05/2024 11:11

OP, in terms of the bottom of your list, if you talk to EASS about both the trip and attendance they can send you template letters in respect of the disability discrimination aspects. (They can advise as to whether the trip exclusion was potentially direct discrimination (for which there is no 'unreasonable' defence) or indirect discrimination (where the legal test would be whether the school's actions were a proportionate means of a legitimate aim). As PPs have said there are questions here about failure to make reasonable adjustments, and also whether the unlawful exclusions constitute either direct discrimination or indirect discrimination (eg. discrimination arising from a disability (if DD is placed at a substantial disadvantage due to the school respond to behaviour arising from a disability (eg attendance difficulties) or again by failure to make reasonable adjustments).

In terms of attendance regs, Not Fine in School have chapter and verse on their website.

Having said all of that, the question sitting underneath this is what do you want to achieve? In addition to the EHCP, how do you want school's behaviour towards your daughter to change in the short to medium terms? It always helps if you can describe this tangibly and positively - so not just 'desist in x because it is causing y difficulties', but also, start doing x instead as this should deliver y benefits to daughter and school'?

Thanks so much, really helpful.

I sent the email to the Attendance officer who phoned me to arrange a meeting with her and the learning mentor. The learning mentor is changing but to someone who should be able to meet DD everyday. She did try to persuade me they didn't need the SEN department in the meeting but I insisted.

It feels really strange that all of a sudden any facade of SEN being involved with DD coming in in the morning has dissolved. A hard line is being drawn between DD coming in, in the morning (Attendance/Learning mentors) and time in school (SEN). I said I thought it was a nonsense to separate them. It is not just important for DD to attend but to be happy and learning too - it is all connected!

And the ridiculous thing is, the strategy suggested by the SEN department is helping! Attendance have not helped (this far.) To me it feels like the HOY has got annoyed that the SEN department have interfered with his plan and has demanded they're not involved anymore. It feels like 'office politics.' SEN have been invited to prior meetings.

I'm going to email her reiterating what was said on the phone and also to ask for confirmation of the unauthorised absences. Then I'll email to challenge them.

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 11:41

What I want - I think a really good start would be to have the same person come to meet my DD at the same place and the same time for rest of the summer term.

OP posts:
Proserphina · 24/05/2024 12:44

UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 11:41

What I want - I think a really good start would be to have the same person come to meet my DD at the same place and the same time for rest of the summer term.

That sounds completely reasonable, along with recognition that DDs autistic-related anxiety, triggered by unmet needs in the school environment, is a special educational need (EBSA) and needs to be planned for and managed accordingly, led by the SENDCO, as part of the SEND plan, review, do cycle.

Also register markings as I for illness in line with DfE regulations and statutory guidance.

You might want to ask what expert advice on managing this is available to support school, including from the LA EP service or a local neurodevelopmental service. You might also want to ask about how DDs sensory needs are being considered and whether an OT assessment has taken place? (They may push back, but these are are sensible steps to understand DDs needs, and usually form part of an EHCP assessment).

Balloonhearts · 24/05/2024 13:09

Include the fact that hoy has actually interfered with and obstructed the SEN teams efforts to help her integrate because he thinks he knows better.

Proserphina · 24/05/2024 13:29

Balloonhearts · 24/05/2024 13:09

Include the fact that hoy has actually interfered with and obstructed the SEN teams efforts to help her integrate because he thinks he knows better.

Sorry if this is Grandmother and eggs, but it's how you broach. If the aim is to change people's behaviour, you generally need to allow them to retreat with a bit of dignity. Personally, I would try and depersonalise, and talk in the positive about the most effective way to manage situations and the skill sets that need to be in play.

Similarly, I would present the legal position as dispassionately at possible, perhaps understating your own knowledge, and explaining what an expert has advised you.

You need to be really assertive, but if possible without entirely breaching relationships?

BrumToTheRescue · 24/05/2024 13:33

perhaps understating your own knowledge, and explaining what an expert has advised you.

I wouldn’t do this. Sadly, DC whose parents know the system, the law, what should be happening, etc. get better support. Schools and LAs take parents more seriously when they know the parent knows the law and will enforce it. It shouldn’t be like this, and fails the most vulnerable, but the situation isn’t going to improve for the foreseeable therefore it is important the school and LA know the OP knows what should be happening.

UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 13:48

Proserphina · 24/05/2024 12:44

That sounds completely reasonable, along with recognition that DDs autistic-related anxiety, triggered by unmet needs in the school environment, is a special educational need (EBSA) and needs to be planned for and managed accordingly, led by the SENDCO, as part of the SEND plan, review, do cycle.

Also register markings as I for illness in line with DfE regulations and statutory guidance.

You might want to ask what expert advice on managing this is available to support school, including from the LA EP service or a local neurodevelopmental service. You might also want to ask about how DDs sensory needs are being considered and whether an OT assessment has taken place? (They may push back, but these are are sensible steps to understand DDs needs, and usually form part of an EHCP assessment).

My understanding is we are waiting for an OT appointment from the child development centre. But can the school do an assessment to?

OP posts:
BrumToTheRescue · 24/05/2024 13:52

If you request an EHCNA and the LA agree to assess an OT assessment can be part of the EHCNA. This can include sensory OT even if your ICB no longer commissions sensory OT. The school could, in theory, fund an assessment themselves, but realistically that is highly unlikely.

UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 13:57

Proserphina · 24/05/2024 13:29

Sorry if this is Grandmother and eggs, but it's how you broach. If the aim is to change people's behaviour, you generally need to allow them to retreat with a bit of dignity. Personally, I would try and depersonalise, and talk in the positive about the most effective way to manage situations and the skill sets that need to be in play.

Similarly, I would present the legal position as dispassionately at possible, perhaps understating your own knowledge, and explaining what an expert has advised you.

You need to be really assertive, but if possible without entirely breaching relationships?

Yes, I see what you mean.

The HOY hasn't even been invited to the meeting after half term so it shouldn't be difficult to have a positive interaction with everyone else. And then at least in September he's not her HOY anyway.

Can you explain a bit more about how you depersonalise? I'm not sure quite what you mean? Being about my DD it couldn't be any more personal!

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 14:03

Bringbackthebeaver · 24/05/2024 08:20

This.

It's also humiliating for her to have to stay at school with kids who had negative behaviour points etc. just because she has a disability (which, it sounds like, could actually have been managed quite reasonably on a trip by putting an LSA in place or letting OP go with her).

It is unlawful discrimination on the basis that she has autism - it's not OK.

Having said that, I also think that giving out school trips on the basis of good achievements/ behaviour is not the best way of managing things either. The school approach generally doesn't sound great to me.

Edited

This is always the trouble I think. It's all great for the DC who went on the trip. But how about for those that couldn't go for SEN reasons or money reasons or not being helped at home with homework so didn't get as many achievement points. How does it feel for them and how will that impact their education?

OP posts:
Proserphina · 24/05/2024 14:07

I know OP, but it is the same principal as with our kids, talk about specific behaviours being a problem, rather than a specific person being the problem IYSWIM? If you make someone feel personally shamed, it's quite unlikely they will move towards you. But if you talk about a specific action or decision being unhelpful, counterproductive etc, you are criticising the act.

@BrumToTheRescue - it's a fine line. OP will sound knowledgeable because she is. The point is though it is not OP telling school her DD needs a reasonable adjustment, it is the law stating this. Citing advice and using a template letter from the public advisory service on the Equality Act 2010 will speak volumes about how switched on OP is.

BrumToTheRescue · 24/05/2024 14:13

@Proserphina using a template letter, seeking advice and letting the school know she has isn’t the same as understating her knowledge, which is what the part of your post I quoted suggested OP did. It is that part of your post OP shouldn’t do.

Redbone · 24/05/2024 14:34

I’m a secondary school teacher of 35 years and I find the behavior of your DD’s school, especially the HOY, abhorrent. I would certainly be making an appointment to see the Head and , preferably, bring another adult with you. I would certainly be pushing for an EHCP.

UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 17:14

Proserphina · 24/05/2024 14:07

I know OP, but it is the same principal as with our kids, talk about specific behaviours being a problem, rather than a specific person being the problem IYSWIM? If you make someone feel personally shamed, it's quite unlikely they will move towards you. But if you talk about a specific action or decision being unhelpful, counterproductive etc, you are criticising the act.

@BrumToTheRescue - it's a fine line. OP will sound knowledgeable because she is. The point is though it is not OP telling school her DD needs a reasonable adjustment, it is the law stating this. Citing advice and using a template letter from the public advisory service on the Equality Act 2010 will speak volumes about how switched on OP is.

Ah, I see, thank you for the explanation.

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 17:15

Redbone · 24/05/2024 14:34

I’m a secondary school teacher of 35 years and I find the behavior of your DD’s school, especially the HOY, abhorrent. I would certainly be making an appointment to see the Head and , preferably, bring another adult with you. I would certainly be pushing for an EHCP.

I'm really scared of seeing the Head! I think I'd definitely need to find someone to come with me!

OP posts:
handmademitlove · 24/05/2024 18:12

Most heads are lovely and you are absolutely allowed to take someone with you. I often attend school meetings with friends - partly to take notes and partly because I am less emotionally invested and am able to remind them of anything they may forget in the moment.

amccabe15 · 24/05/2024 18:52

Get in touch with local authority and ask to speak to senco there. Explain the situation and insist they support you - it’s their job.

Yesitisis · 24/05/2024 19:09

UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 07:59

Oh, I'm sorry it brought back bad memories. How is your DS now?

And I totally relate. The HOY is obsessed with trying to get DD to go in the student entrance. Like you - of course I'd love her to just walk in on her own. I'd love to say goodbye at my door and her take the train with her friends. But the reality is she is not ready for that. And if trying to force her to go in the student entrance is making it more difficult for her to go in at all then it's just pointless.

The LSAs do help with getting DD in. They were happy with how things were going but then HOY changed things and messed it up. Then after a particularly difficult morning where it took 30 minutes for her to get in he started this 5 min thing.

Thank you for your kind words.

At least they were helping, they need to start again. The HOY sounds awful. My DS was allowed to come in later and not go to tutor, he was allowed to register in in school leaning. He found the amount of students all coming in at the same time over whelming. Some kids cannot cope in mainstream. I honestly hated it. I was made to go in for meetings every 6 weeks. DS would often leave school and I would receive a phone call to say they thought that he had left and to go out looking for him. Covid actually helped him as there were far fewer students in school but it was impossible to homeschool him. He hardly got any GCSE’s but managed to get English and Maths.
Today, he is completely unrecognisable from how he was then. As soon as he left school and went to college things were 100% better. He finished college with the equivalent of 3 A levels. He has fairly recently managed to get a job in retail, nothing amazing, but it’s a million miles away from where he was a few years ago at school. I am so proud of him! I am sure things will get better eventually for your DC, it’s really hard when school staff are not on board. Good luck and definitely go for the EHCP, I wish I had.

UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 19:58

handmademitlove · 24/05/2024 18:12

Most heads are lovely and you are absolutely allowed to take someone with you. I often attend school meetings with friends - partly to take notes and partly because I am less emotionally invested and am able to remind them of anything they may forget in the moment.

I really like the Head was impressed when I first heard her talk at the open evening. And I've spoken to her a few times and she's very approachable and friendly. I think it's purely it brings back the horrible memories of seeing the Head when I was at school!! But yes, that's a really good reason to bring someone with you.

OP posts:
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