Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

School attendance - is this allowed?

270 replies

UndertheCedartree · 23/05/2024 15:18

My DD is in Y7 at mainstream secondary and is autistic and very anxious.

HOY keeps chopping and changing plans for my DD with no consistency or communication. Essentially, on my side of it school are just making things worse.

As an example today there is a Reward Trip for those with over 100 achievement points and less than 8 behaviour points. My DD has 130 achievement points and 0 behaviour points but has been excluded from the trip as they felt they would need to send an LSA which they didn't want to. At our last meeting I expressed how unhappy and left out she was feeling as all her friends are going on the trip and naturally excitedly chatting about it at school as well as out of school. I was told by her HOY that they were planning a Reward Day at school for those who met the criteria but couldn't go on the trip for whatever reason. I've been asking for information about this but only been informed this morning that they decided to not do the Reward Day in the end!!

Her HOY has now decided to implement a new plan - I've not agreed with any of it as I find it inappropriate but the specific thing I wanted to ask about is his plan for me to bring DD in the morning and if they can't get her into school within 5 minutes I have to take her home. Presumably if I bring her in they can mark her as in on their attendance figures, but don't have to bother with giving her an education. Apparently I should then bring her back for afternoon school and if they can't get her in within 5 minutes I have to take her home again! So their attendance looks great but my DD gets no education. Is this allowed?

OP posts:
BrumToTheRescue · 23/05/2024 22:30

In my pp, you should change the EHCP part to an EHCNA has not yet been requested.

Murphs1 · 23/05/2024 22:34

This is actually unlawful and happened to us. If you google sendias they have fantastic impartial advice about then Sen code and what schools should provide with an ehcp or not.

Murphs1 · 23/05/2024 22:37

Oh and legally schools are only allowed to send children home if they are sick or been excluded

ForestForever · 23/05/2024 22:41

If they are claiming they can meet her needs then legally they can’t implement sending her home specifically without your permission. If they can meet her needs they wouldn’t even need to suggest it. If they can’t meet her needs then they need to be applying for an EHCP. It’s illegal for them to send her home unless she’s unwell/ suspended/expelled/ unable to meet needs as she legally has the right to be in school full time as she’s over the age of 5. Tell them to jog on and ask for the complaints procedure. I would also self refer for an EHCP. It has nothing to do with them being able to meet her needs and everything to do with having a legal wrap around document to protect her needs and will hold the school accountable if they fail to do so. Many children including my own have an EHCP and have a mainstream school placement at a school when their needs can be met. They are purposefully misrepresenting the purpose of an EHCP and your child may suffer for it. It can carry on even further than secondary education and into college etc until the age of 20 I believe. As others have said contact SENDIASS.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/05/2024 22:45

Isitovernow123 · 23/05/2024 22:17

But she’s not getting into school is she. You aren’t getting her in. The school cannot spend time trying to get her in when you yourself say she is too attached to you.

75% attendance is very poor and I would expect a LIT meeting at the very minimum, with IARF as well to see if there is any extra support that can be provided to you from multiagency sources.

There are so many children with EHCPs now that it’s almost watered down the importance of them, with it, in some cases, just viewed as the norm. I have a class with 6 in, plus 9 SEN K in. One TA.

You have a choice. Either put up with what you currently have or find an alternative for her to attend. It’s hard, but ultimately you are responsible for ensuring your child gets in to the education establishment, and not the school.

Show quote history

I am getting her in when she is well enough to go in. I've said no where she's too attached to me. The school certainly can spend time supporting her in the morning - that is part of meeting her needs.

What is LIT and IARF? But yes, any extra support would be great. But it would also be great for the HOY to stop obstructing and sabotaging plans.

I don't have to put up with disability discrimination or her needs not being met atall. Why should I find an alternative because of one power crazed HOY?

And I know it's hard but I still get her in. At that point it's over to the school.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/05/2024 22:51

ForestForever · 23/05/2024 22:41

If they are claiming they can meet her needs then legally they can’t implement sending her home specifically without your permission. If they can meet her needs they wouldn’t even need to suggest it. If they can’t meet her needs then they need to be applying for an EHCP. It’s illegal for them to send her home unless she’s unwell/ suspended/expelled/ unable to meet needs as she legally has the right to be in school full time as she’s over the age of 5. Tell them to jog on and ask for the complaints procedure. I would also self refer for an EHCP. It has nothing to do with them being able to meet her needs and everything to do with having a legal wrap around document to protect her needs and will hold the school accountable if they fail to do so. Many children including my own have an EHCP and have a mainstream school placement at a school when their needs can be met. They are purposefully misrepresenting the purpose of an EHCP and your child may suffer for it. It can carry on even further than secondary education and into college etc until the age of 20 I believe. As others have said contact SENDIASS.

Edited

I appreciate this, thank you. I definitely feel they have misrepresented the situation with an EHCP.

OP posts:
Iscreamtea · 23/05/2024 23:07

Don't be afraid to be demanding on her behalf. You'd be amazed what can be done when you kick up a fuss. I would absolutely go to the head and say you do not want to deal with HOY any more and instead would like to deal with the SEN team. Work with them to come up with a plan to make it easier for her to get into school once you get her there. As above, she does sound like she should have an EHCP. They clearly, are struggling to meet her needs.

I'm sorry it's such a battle. It shouldn't be that way.

skeettch · 23/05/2024 23:17

.

Proserphina · 23/05/2024 23:26

Isitovernow123 · 23/05/2024 22:17

But she’s not getting into school is she. You aren’t getting her in. The school cannot spend time trying to get her in when you yourself say she is too attached to you.

75% attendance is very poor and I would expect a LIT meeting at the very minimum, with IARF as well to see if there is any extra support that can be provided to you from multiagency sources.

There are so many children with EHCPs now that it’s almost watered down the importance of them, with it, in some cases, just viewed as the norm. I have a class with 6 in, plus 9 SEN K in. One TA.

You have a choice. Either put up with what you currently have or find an alternative for her to attend. It’s hard, but ultimately you are responsible for ensuring your child gets in to the education establishment, and not the school.

Show quote history

What a concerning post. The school need to focus on meeting her needs, not play games to massage attendance stats. Ask an EP - EBSA requires environmental adjustments not child or family blame. Agree with PP - LA and school need to behave lawfully.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/05/2024 23:27

Iscreamtea · 23/05/2024 23:07

Don't be afraid to be demanding on her behalf. You'd be amazed what can be done when you kick up a fuss. I would absolutely go to the head and say you do not want to deal with HOY any more and instead would like to deal with the SEN team. Work with them to come up with a plan to make it easier for her to get into school once you get her there. As above, she does sound like she should have an EHCP. They clearly, are struggling to meet her needs.

I'm sorry it's such a battle. It shouldn't be that way.

I'm not afraid to be demanding and I feel more confident with all the help everyone has given me.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/05/2024 23:34

Proserphina · 23/05/2024 23:26

What a concerning post. The school need to focus on meeting her needs, not play games to massage attendance stats. Ask an EP - EBSA requires environmental adjustments not child or family blame. Agree with PP - LA and school need to behave lawfully.

Show quote history

It really got to me today that the HOY was basically emphasising attendance and punctuality above all else. He made it clear that was his focus. He wasn't interested in whether DD is happy or if she can engage with lessons. The SEN department told me that one day this week where DD was unsettled due to changes to her plan, despite the HOY telling me she had been fine apparently she had been pulling her hair out and had her head down on the desk for the whole of the first lesson 😞

OP posts:
Ellie56 · 23/05/2024 23:55

apparently she had been pulling her hair out and had her head down on the desk for the whole of the first lesson 😞

More evidence that her needs are not being met.

And that HOY clearly knows sweet F A about autism. If he did, he would know that those with autism need the security of structure, routine and continuity, not constant change which causes stress and anxiety.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 00:08

Ellie56 · 23/05/2024 23:55

apparently she had been pulling her hair out and had her head down on the desk for the whole of the first lesson 😞

More evidence that her needs are not being met.

And that HOY clearly knows sweet F A about autism. If he did, he would know that those with autism need the security of structure, routine and continuity, not constant change which causes stress and anxiety.

Yes, exactly.

I had SEN saying to me can we come up with something to help DD's anxiety this week due to the hair pulling incident. Came up with an idea with SEN. Tried it out on Wednesday and she went in ok. Then I have the HOY saying 'this plan is unsuitable, we need to go back to my plan and I'll actually make another change while I'm at it!' Then he tells me there is no Reward Day! Then it all came out!!

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 00:08

But yes, as you say more evidence.

OP posts:
Pumpkin82 · 24/05/2024 01:12

As a SENCO, I echo what others have said. Apply for the EHC needs assessment yourself. IPSEA have template letters you can use. It is not for the school to decide whether she needs an EHCP or not. The LA will contact the school for evidence so you don't need to do anything at all after you make the application.
It is unlawful to not include your DD in the rewards trip purely because an LSA is needed. If you have this in writing, make a formal complaint.
The law is clear that a reduced timetable is a last resort and should be planned in partnership with parents for a maximum of 6 weeks. There should be a clear plan for reintegration.

Good luck - stick to the facts and don't be afraid to remind the HOY of the school's legal duties!

Mummy2024 · 24/05/2024 01:18

UndertheCedartree · 23/05/2024 15:31

No, she hasn't. She got her autism diagnosis in January this year. School said she doesn't need/won't get an EHCP as they can meet her needs.

Show quote history

You can request your own ehcp and if they are excluding her from trips due to no 1 to 1 (which is disabilty discrimination btw) and sending her home after 5 mins of not being able to get her in, then they very clearly can't meet her needs... there's a service called IAS who works for councils. Contact the council to get an ehcp assessment. I would recommend moving her school first though as it can take a long time to get a new school once a school is named on an ehcp.

Mummy2024 · 24/05/2024 01:28

Seashor · 23/05/2024 16:06

I don’t think it’s up to school to get her into school, I think that’s down to you. As far as the trip is concerned if it isn’t suitable for your daughter as outlined on a risk assessment then I can’t see that they are discriminating. They have said that they will be offering an alternative that is suitable. I’ve not taken pupils before for all types of reasons. If it’s my signature on that risk assessment and I can’t manage a ‘risk’ then it isn’t happening.

Let's hope they have a Copy of the risk assessment then, and to tell the parent it's because they don't want to send a 1 to 1 means that there was a reasonable adjustment that could have been made and they chose not to. That is discrimination. Oh and they have cancelled the alternative this morning!

Lastly what is she supposed to do drag her daughter through the door?
I'm slightly concerned from what you have written that you are a teacher? With no concern or understanding for children with additional needs or the challenges parents face, trying to raise them?

Yesitisis · 24/05/2024 03:44

Wow op, this has brought back some horrible memories for me. I had a very similar experience with my DC, also ASD. My HOY always said that they thought it best if DC walked in on their own. It used to make me laugh thinking don’t you think that’s what I want! I used to spend at least an hour trying to get DC into school every day. What do they mean by is they can’t get her in in 5 minutes? Are they actively helping to get her in to school? If they are, they are doing more than DC’s school did. They helped on one occasion and then said that they didn’t have the staff for them to be tied up with trying to get DC into school. If they are helping, that is good, but the 5 minute situation is ridiculous and I agree with others apply for an EHCP, I never managed to get one but I know you must be exhausted with the whole situation.
They are not meeting DC’s needs.

The school trip situation also happened to my DC, like others say write to the school and say that it is discrimination and that they are unfairly disadvantaging them. If they get FSM mention this as well. I was offered to go on the trip but couldn’t as I had younger DC. No TA/LSA wanted to take responsibility for my DC on the trip. In the end, the head decided that they would go on the trip and take responsibility for my DC. It took a great deal of fuss but they went in the end. These kids already often hate school and feel left out, being left out of school trips just make things worse.

I just wanted to say that I completely empathise with you, it is all such a battle and so exhausting 🤗. Good luck with everything.

sashh · 24/05/2024 04:25

The trip is clearly disability discrimination. Pull them up on that.

The thing about going in for 5 mins is a little trickier but I don't think it is good and I'm no legal expert.

If you turn up with her after lunch will they hand over the work she has missed from the morning?

I'd make it as difficult for the HOY as possible ie I would be demanding the work from the morning, complete with the teacher's lesson plan, notes, powerpoints and reflections from the teacher about what the other students found hard, interesting questions / answers.

Trust me no teacher has time to do that.

Suggest they video record the lesson - they will say they can't because of data protection. Say they can record just the teacher and the audio of the others in the room. They would have to ask all parents / guardians for permission.

But that's not your problem. They have to provide her with an education and they have a duty of care to her too.

They also have to abide by DDA ? Equality Act so a 'reasonable adjustment' would be no changes for x length of time unless it is something really serious like the school being on fire.

Basically make it easier for your DD to be in school than for the school to send her home.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 07:35

Pumpkin82 · 24/05/2024 01:12

As a SENCO, I echo what others have said. Apply for the EHC needs assessment yourself. IPSEA have template letters you can use. It is not for the school to decide whether she needs an EHCP or not. The LA will contact the school for evidence so you don't need to do anything at all after you make the application.
It is unlawful to not include your DD in the rewards trip purely because an LSA is needed. If you have this in writing, make a formal complaint.
The law is clear that a reduced timetable is a last resort and should be planned in partnership with parents for a maximum of 6 weeks. There should be a clear plan for reintegration.

Good luck - stick to the facts and don't be afraid to remind the HOY of the school's legal duties!

Thanks for the information.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 07:36

Mummy2024 · 24/05/2024 01:18

You can request your own ehcp and if they are excluding her from trips due to no 1 to 1 (which is disabilty discrimination btw) and sending her home after 5 mins of not being able to get her in, then they very clearly can't meet her needs... there's a service called IAS who works for councils. Contact the council to get an ehcp assessment. I would recommend moving her school first though as it can take a long time to get a new school once a school is named on an ehcp.

Show quote history

I'll do that.

I won't be moving her school, though the other 2 near us are much, much worse!

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 07:39

Mummy2024 · 24/05/2024 01:28

Let's hope they have a Copy of the risk assessment then, and to tell the parent it's because they don't want to send a 1 to 1 means that there was a reasonable adjustment that could have been made and they chose not to. That is discrimination. Oh and they have cancelled the alternative this morning!

Lastly what is she supposed to do drag her daughter through the door?
I'm slightly concerned from what you have written that you are a teacher? With no concern or understanding for children with additional needs or the challenges parents face, trying to raise them?

Edited
Show quote history

Yes, that makes sense. There was a reasonable adjustment that they didn't do - take an LSA or if none available I could have gone with her.

And I do hope that poster is not a teacher too.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 24/05/2024 07:59

Yesitisis · 24/05/2024 03:44

Wow op, this has brought back some horrible memories for me. I had a very similar experience with my DC, also ASD. My HOY always said that they thought it best if DC walked in on their own. It used to make me laugh thinking don’t you think that’s what I want! I used to spend at least an hour trying to get DC into school every day. What do they mean by is they can’t get her in in 5 minutes? Are they actively helping to get her in to school? If they are, they are doing more than DC’s school did. They helped on one occasion and then said that they didn’t have the staff for them to be tied up with trying to get DC into school. If they are helping, that is good, but the 5 minute situation is ridiculous and I agree with others apply for an EHCP, I never managed to get one but I know you must be exhausted with the whole situation.
They are not meeting DC’s needs.

The school trip situation also happened to my DC, like others say write to the school and say that it is discrimination and that they are unfairly disadvantaging them. If they get FSM mention this as well. I was offered to go on the trip but couldn’t as I had younger DC. No TA/LSA wanted to take responsibility for my DC on the trip. In the end, the head decided that they would go on the trip and take responsibility for my DC. It took a great deal of fuss but they went in the end. These kids already often hate school and feel left out, being left out of school trips just make things worse.

I just wanted to say that I completely empathise with you, it is all such a battle and so exhausting 🤗. Good luck with everything.

Oh, I'm sorry it brought back bad memories. How is your DS now?

And I totally relate. The HOY is obsessed with trying to get DD to go in the student entrance. Like you - of course I'd love her to just walk in on her own. I'd love to say goodbye at my door and her take the train with her friends. But the reality is she is not ready for that. And if trying to force her to go in the student entrance is making it more difficult for her to go in at all then it's just pointless.

The LSAs do help with getting DD in. They were happy with how things were going but then HOY changed things and messed it up. Then after a particularly difficult morning where it took 30 minutes for her to get in he started this 5 min thing.

Thank you for your kind words.

OP posts:
MsCheeryble · 24/05/2024 08:07

ageratum1 · 23/05/2024 15:54

The school trip, I understand, but they should have done something else for her instead.
I don't understand the 5 minute thing.How does that help their attendance figures mote than if she goes home?

Why do you understand the school trip? Leaving a child out of a school trip because they have a disability that you choose not to make reasonable adjustments for is clear discrimination. They can't claim it's an unreasonable adjustment, given that they say that they can meet her needs.