Page 19 | To think that those private school parents banging on about their fees

Thegreatergoodgerald · 2024-05-23T10:23:30+00:00

Seriously have misjudged how little anyone else gives a stuff??? NHS, social care, state education, public transport, bloody potholes everywhere - that’s what matters to everyone I know. Not whether or not VAT is added to a business. YANBU - it’s hardly the end of the world if Clemmie or Charles end up going to a state school. We have bigger things to worry about in the U.K. right now YABU - of course everyone cares private school parents might have to pay more

GivePeaceAChance · 23/05/2024 16:28

Araminta1003 · 23/05/2024 16:19

I think they should make whether VAT is payable on school fees income and wealth based. They should ask each private school parent to self certify at the start of each academic what their status is (and the penalty should be tax fraud and a criminal offence).
Something along the lines of: if you have 1 child in private education, if your income is above 130k and your wealth (housing, investments, second homes, accounts) more than 1 million - then you pay the VAT. If you have 2 DC in private education, is your income more than 160k and wealth 1.3 million etc etc

And to be honest, I think the same should apply to children with EHCPs and in special schools but with much higher threshold. Personally I know a number of rich people who get state funding for their EHCP children and they could also contribute a bit more too.

If it is income and wealth based, it will be fairer.

Definitely authoritarian Starmer Big Brother policy there

GivePeaceAChance · 23/05/2024 16:30

MagnetCarHair · 23/05/2024 16:22

Yes, mine too. In a, brace for it, exclusively comprehensive school area, no less.

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exclusively comprehensive school areas do better than those with grammar schools.

morechocolateneededtoday · 23/05/2024 16:30

BIossomtoes · 23/05/2024 16:28

That’s because the detail will be in the manifesto, deliberately withheld because the Tories have form for stealing policies. I can’t get my head round anyone working in the NHS wanting another Tory government. You should ask your older colleagues about what it was like pre 2010.

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If you read my previous posts, you will see I am in no way advocating for a Tory government and will not be voting for them. I just have very little belief labour will be any better

FYI I worked in the NHS pre 2010 - I know exactly how it was from my own experience - good and bad - the level of wastage then was off the scale even if many other things were better. Thanks for being so patronising though

lhlh · 23/05/2024 16:31

KarenOH · 23/05/2024 15:39

'let me have more financial privilege or I'm going to come and make the poor people's lives worse.'

Paying for education isn't a financial privilege. It's a financial penalty. You lose money by paying.

Nobody actually wants to pay for it. They pay for it because the state alternative in their area is unacceptable.

MrsSunshine2b · 23/05/2024 16:31

silverneedle · 23/05/2024 16:23

Interesting article by Tim Leunig, an economist and former special adviser to Downing Street, the Treasury and Department for Education in 2023. He tweeted despite the threat of VAT, private school applications are the second highest in history. He has no doubt that the sector will be fine, and that Labour will raise a decent sum of money.

From article:

“There are times in our lives when bad stuff happens. State schools did not want the Theresa May cuts in real-terms funding. Indeed, they didn’t want austerity at all. But you know what? That is democracy and we have to live with the decisions our politicians make.

State schools, starting from much lower levels of funding, managed to make ends meet. Good, valuable things were scrapped. Quite remarkably (at least until Covid) our schools and our children coped. Outcomes remained strong, measured by GCSE results, PISA and comparison with other parts of the UK. Our state schools can be proud of what they have achieved in tough times.

It is time for private schools to show the same resilience. Fees have risen a lot in recent years. If parents won’t pay 20 per cent more, private schools need to make austerity work. No more fancy new buildings. Hire out that swimming pool in the evenings. Maybe – whisper it quietly – close the pool altogether.

And if they struggle to do that, perhaps they should approach their local state schools to ask how to cut costs without cutting standards. I am sure for the right fee our state school leaders, many of whom really are outstanding, would be willing to impart their wisdom.

No doubt they’d find a lot of savings to make. In fact, I’d bet a bottle of luxury sparkling wine on it.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/avoiding-vat-is-a-risky-strategy-for-private-schools-better-advice-is-available/

Edited

The writer says that private schools are luxury goods because the funding is 3x the cost of a Ford. The obvious difference is the govt isn't paying for everyone to have a Ford. If we had a collective scheme to buy every adult a Ford, would we say that BMW drivers have to contribute the same amount to the Ford fund, & THEN pay an extra percentage on top of the full cost of the BMW towards improving Fords? Private school parents are already saving the govt a lot of money by not taking up a state school place.

Iwasafool · 23/05/2024 16:31

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 23/05/2024 11:30

Just to put it in perspective the VAT will pay for less than 1% of the education budget but the state will have to find thousands of extra school places for kids whose parents do the maths and can’t quite afford it any more. That won’t apply to most private school kids, but enough that a number will have to move to state. And for what?

I read 0.6% of kids go to fee paying schools and that from 2022/23 numbers are falling by 1% a year. Sounds like it will work out OK.

BIossomtoes · 23/05/2024 16:32

GivePeaceAChance · 23/05/2024 16:26

I was hoping that article was going to tell me something new
Alas…..no!

I’d be surprised if many hadn’t already seen this but no one’s taking the idea that doctors and nurses just do overtime to deal with waiting lists as a serious and reasonable proposal.
They already do overtime and are overworked.

Have they asked doctors about all this overtime, no! Why, because they are already overworked.

We need more doctors and now with more doctors in training as more places at Universities have been allowed by the Government we may see things filter through, but that’s not down to yet another pathetic I’ll thought out policy by the Labour Party.

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No over time is currently paid, is it? However overworked they might be, many of them seem to find time to run a private practice. Yes, we need more doctors but they can’t be magicked up tomorrow. What’s the Tory proposal for improving the NHS? Always assuming they have one - last I heard it was all about lanyards.

twistyizzy · 23/05/2024 16:33

Iwasafool · 23/05/2024 16:31

I read 0.6% of kids go to fee paying schools and that from 2022/23 numbers are falling by 1% a year. Sounds like it will work out OK.

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You read wrong.
7% which rises to 18% at A level

crumblingschools · 23/05/2024 16:34

@Iwasafool the funding schools get isn’t enough now. That is the problem

MagnetCarHair · 23/05/2024 16:34

I am a doctor working for the NHS. I live with the difficulties every single day - this plan has fantastic sound bites with very little detail on how it will possibly be achieved with all the current problems we are facing

Dear morechocolateneededtoday,

Have you thought about working a bit harder. You know, really put your back in to it?

Regards,

W.Streeting

LilacK · 23/05/2024 16:35

MrsSunshine2b · 23/05/2024 15:27

The vast majority of state schools are now academy schools which have charitable status.

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This school is not an academy.

BrickShaker · 23/05/2024 16:35

@twistyizzy The 18% is because loads of state school kids do not do A Levels.

Lolaandbehold · 23/05/2024 16:35

I don’t care about the 20% VAT on my school fees as it’s a business which shouldn’t be exempt but the school is getting rid of all bursaries for incoming kids so private school will become even more elite, which is a shame.

I never complain about private school fees because I feel supremely grateful to have the choice to opt out of the state system. They could triple the fees and I’d still pay them.

I am however going to offset the 20% VAT against my charitable contributions.

BIossomtoes · 23/05/2024 16:36

twistyizzy · 23/05/2024 16:33

You read wrong.
7% which rises to 18% at A level

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12% actually because fewer state pupils stay on for A level.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 23/05/2024 16:36

Dentistlakes · 23/05/2024 16:00

The very wealthy won’t be affected. The first who will suffer are those who would have received scholarships and bursaries. Then there will be the withdrawal of the sharing of sports facilities with the state sector. Alongside this will
be the necessary provision of state school places which will probably be in the best catchment areas and the increased competition for grammar school places. I think it’s a case of be careful what you wish for.

Re sharing of sports facilities with the state sector, I am not saying it doesn’t happen but I have 3 children nearly through state education and not a single one of them has ever had an opportunity to use sports or other facilities at a private school.
The only time they have ever taken part in something there has been for events like careers days where the school has had to get academics to come and talk to them for free, and it’s much easier to get them to come if you can tell them it’s an event for all local schools.

GivePeaceAChance · 23/05/2024 16:36

BIossomtoes · 23/05/2024 16:28

That’s because the detail will be in the manifesto, deliberately withheld because the Tories have form for stealing policies. I can’t get my head round anyone working in the NHS wanting another Tory government. You should ask your older colleagues about what it was like pre 2010.

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We all want detail but

Its not hard to understand the policy is ridiculous if

doctors are expected to work evenings and weekends to cut the waiting list.

Willyoujustbequiet · 23/05/2024 16:36

MrsSunshine2b · 23/05/2024 15:53

You were very fortunate to have a school willing to do that. The majority of children with EHCPs are working significantly behind age-related expectations and need a lot of support to access mainstream education, let alone the often more rigorous standards at private schools. I have taken many parents through the process when I was teaching myself and if I had £1 for every time I went to a SENCO and said, "This child, who is well behaved and achieving at ARE, needs SEN support, the parents are also concerned," and got practically laughed out of the office, I'd be easily able to afford private school.

Suggesting that private schools take children on with EHCPs when in fact many take a lot of children with SEN but who have been unable to get EHCPs isn't inclusive. It's just continuing to further draw the divide between the parents who were tenacious enough and lucky enough to be able to secure EHCPs and those that couldn't.

We looked around a local private school for my daughter. It is academically selective. 70% of the children are ND and many parents have picked that school (very small and high pastoral care) specifically because of that. Many of them will now be forced out. I don't know if my daughter is NT but she struggles in loud and busy environments so the small classes would have been a big benefit to her.

We did not choose that school because we could only have JUST afforded the fees (on a combined income of £70kpa, so hardly Elon Musk) and we didn't want to have to withdraw her and unsettle her if the fees rose. That's £98k that the tax payer will be covering.

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A lot of the children with EHCPs may be behind age related expectations but that's got nothing to do with intelligence in many cases. Often its because their needs haven't been met previously and teaching methods weren't appropriate but when an EHCP is obtained with tailored support then they can excel. There is no reason a child with an EHCP shouldn't attend a private school if that is the best environment for them but there are state schools with small class sizes and excellent pastoral support too. It's not mutually exclusive.

I can certainly understanding wanting the best for your child and whilst this may affect you on an individual level I simply can't envisage this proposed policy having much impact nationally.

lhlh · 23/05/2024 16:36

BIossomtoes · 23/05/2024 16:20

Most people’s are.

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If most people's kids are thriving in the state sector, then why is the private school VAT money needed for it? You can't have it all ways.

BrickShaker · 23/05/2024 16:37

And OP, you are right, no one else cares.

twistyizzy · 23/05/2024 16:37

BrickShaker · 23/05/2024 16:35

@twistyizzy The 18% is because loads of state school kids do not do A Levels.

Well obviously fewer DC stay on anyway for A levels. That doesn't negate the fact that by A level the % at private school is 18%.

GivePeaceAChance · 23/05/2024 16:38

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 23/05/2024 16:36

Re sharing of sports facilities with the state sector, I am not saying it doesn’t happen but I have 3 children nearly through state education and not a single one of them has ever had an opportunity to use sports or other facilities at a private school.
The only time they have ever taken part in something there has been for events like careers days where the school has had to get academics to come and talk to them for free, and it’s much easier to get them to come if you can tell them it’s an event for all local schools.

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A lot of Indi schools offer facilities. Both of ours did and much more!
One of our old schools even built a sports centre plus, football pitches, tennis courts etc.
Open evenings, weekends, holidays etc.

BrickShaker · 23/05/2024 16:39

twistyizzy · 23/05/2024 16:37

Well obviously fewer DC stay on anyway for A levels. That doesn't negate the fact that by A level the % at private school is 18%.

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The statistic is shared as if loads of kids go to private school at A Level. They do not. It is still a small percentage of children that age.

BrickShaker · 23/05/2024 16:40

@twistyizzy And it is 15%, not 18%.

BIossomtoes · 23/05/2024 16:42

lhlh · 23/05/2024 16:36

If most people's kids are thriving in the state sector, then why is the private school VAT money needed for it? You can't have it all ways.

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To even the playing field and help them thrive more

BIossomtoes · 23/05/2024 16:42

BrickShaker · 23/05/2024 16:40

@twistyizzy And it is 15%, not 18%.

It’s 12.2% actually.