To think that those private school parents banging on about their fees

[Thegreatergoodgerald]

Seriously have misjudged how little anyone else gives a stuff??? NHS, social care, state education, public transport, bloody potholes everywhere - that’s what matters to everyone I know.
Not whether or not VAT is added to a business.

YANBU - it’s hardly the end of the world if Clemmie or Charles end up going to a state school. We have bigger things to worry about in the U.K. right now

YABU - of course everyone cares private school parents might have to pay more

Indeed. Its not going to have anywhere near the impact some claim.

It’s easy enough to look up the amount of profit the schools are making with a quick search on Companies House.

I expect that rather than closing they will reduce the fees and make a smidgen less profit. Maybe they will add 2 extra children to their classes to cover this.

State schools are in crisis (my username pretty much sums it up, and I don’t just mean the buildings!)

Funding is also lagged so even if state schools take on more pupils from private schools they won’t see additional funding for that pupil for some time. If Starmer brings in this policy in September many private schools ask parents to give a term notice, so even if fees go up in September parents might keep child in private school for that term as they have to pay for it. So child won’t move to state until January. Every October state schools have a census for all children in roll. Funding is then calculated for next academic year based on that census. So if child A is moving from private school to state in Jan 25 they will have missed the Oct 24 census. They will be included in Oct 25 census and school will receive funding for child A in Sept 26. In the meantime they will have spent resources on that child from their budget (or lack of budget) from Jan 25.

State school funding is what Starner and other politicians should be campaigning about, not VAT on school fees

https://www.nfer.ac.uk/press-releases/nearly-half-of-schools-in-england-report-in-year-deficit-in-new-cost-of-living-survey/

Yup we've moved and the best bit is we can sell the house in a few years to get the money back! The general consensus seems to be thinking it will redistribute the private kids + parents when all it is doing is increasing house prices.

The NHS is a money pit, the fact that no party offers a real solution makes you think is it solvable.

You pick a party that aligns with your priorities. Mine is my son so paying down the deficit, growing the economy, defence, education and critical surgery/medicine funding play higher on my mind than the routine waiting lists or cost of living crisis.

We work average jobs with a side hustle we are not insanely wealthy just comfortable.

Agreed.

There's a lot of nonsense being thrown around.

If anything I expect the legislation will push more private schools to demonstrate their public benefit.

I too find it astonishing that people don't look beyond their own personal interests when voting. They'd rather have slightly cheaper school fees (and not have to forgo their annual skiing holiday/car upgrade) even if that means having a corrupt government that has left us literally swimming in shit.

I don't take my children to the beach any more. People in Devon can't even drink their own water. My life saving medication is often not available and last time I went to A&E it was full of desperately ill people sleeping on chairs. We've spunked hundreds of millions on a Rwandan white elephant and our leaders partied while we were told to stay home.

I can live with trimming the fat a bit more to pay private school fees.

Who has been trying to say don't vote Labour? I'm no Tory but that's what thrown around as an insult towards critics of the policy.

I live in SE London. What I'm seeing around here is much more pressure on very good local state schools' catchments - so people are paying £1.5m or so and guaranteeing that their kids will be catered for from 4-18. I am also noticing far more adverts for local private schools - not the Dulwich / Alleyns type but the tier below - who I expect have more vacancies than they'd like.

As ever I think the poorest will be the losers in all this.

I'm not sure that I am against Labour's proposals but they do seem to come from a place of spite or hatred rather than a genuine desire to promote educational equality.

Did they guarantee no increase in the education budget then, over their whole term of office, no matter what happens? (Although even that would be massively better than Tory cuts that we've had over recent years).

Why do you think it doesn't add up anyway?

500,000 kids in private school.
Average fees 20,000 per year.
So 20% of that is 2 billion.
It seems like it should more than cover the 200 million you say will be needed if 10% leave their private schools?

Even if you're right, who do you think will be impacted by these policy changes? The rich can absorb the increase in cost so it will be those who are less well off that have to leave the private sector.

I think people have a bit of a misconception about who uses private and state schools. In my (nice) area, the private and state schools are largely full of the same kinds of children. The private school though actually has a reasonable number of children from outside the nice area that live in noticeably less expensive areas. Their parents run restaurants, work in education and one is a taxi driver. They can't afford a house in the nicer area but can (just about) afford the fees. Their catchment schools are terrible so they go around in very old cars, live very frugally and never go on holiday to allow their kids to go to a better school. Meanwhile the parents in the state school have lovely houses in the nicer area, holiday multiple times a year and drive Teslas. The state school is rated at Outstanding so they merrily send their kids there knowing that the catchment acts as an effectively social filter.

I struggle to accept that the 'Impact' of the change is small for the people involved or that this is a stride forward for educational equality.

yep. And the idea that the incoming kids with involved parents that can now spend their money on tutoring and after school activities will bring up the standards in crap state schools is laughable. The vast majority won't be in those schools, they'll be in the grammars, church schools and suburban ofsted outstandings where their parents have the resources, knowledge and motivation to make sure their kids are in the best state schools.

The odd ones that do make it to the crapper school just get put on the elite track / top sets with little benfit to other kids who they don't even mix with.

I've seen this at the local, very well-regarded state sixth form not a million miles away from Kier Starmer's private school. The kids that bomb out of the local grammars/private schools because they don't get all 7's + in their GCSEs, and so don't get into sixth form, go there and are immediately put on the 'University/Graduate Apprentice track'. Because even with their 5/6/7/8s, they are already more able to keep up with A level courses than the kids from local feeder secondaries who apart from the odd exception come in with their 3/4/5/6s and are immediatley put on the 'BTEC/apprentice/trades' track.

There is very little mobility between the 2 cohorts and they barely mix. it's also very hard to get yourself re-classified as University-grade as well if you come in from the wrong end. My niece had to fight for this and needed written support from family members as her own were not getting involved.

I do wonder if the people who want private schools abolished overnight really do have experience or knowledge about how random and often crap state secondary education is in parts of the country. My son has lovely, bright, friends who are just dossing around now as 19y olds were utterly failed by their schools and this government during the pandemic.

What will cover the cost? VAT?
That's not going into the education budget per se (only for teacher recruitment not for funding places) and fir every child that leaves private education there is 2-4K less in VAT revenue.
If Labout were serious about improving state education then they would have promised something like an education tax based on income tax eg 1p for top rate tax payers. That would be a long term sustainable revenue stream. VAT is often used to change behaviour and therefore has the potential to reduce over time.

@Another76543 , I was responding to someone who suggested that independent schools will continue with their charitable programs even once they are made to charge VAT on their fees. As I understand it and please correct me if I’m wrong, apart from not charging VAT charitable status affords independent schools a modest tax advantage, their income should not generate a profit and they must engage in charitable works such as lending teachers, theatres, sports fields etc?
Do you think it’s likely that these smaller independent schools will look to change their model? They are only going to be left with the children of the very wealthy who can absorb the extra 20%. If they hike their fees to take account of the slight tax rise they no longer need to offer charity to the state sector and can make a profit.
Im not sure anyone can tell but I don’t think we can assume they will continue with their charitable activities.

We have to remember that the VAT and charitable status position are completely separate. As far as we’ve been told, the charitable status aspect isn’t being touched.

You’re correct that charitable status does bring some advantages. If those advantages are somehow taken away by other means, I agree that we can’t assume that they’ll continue with their charitable activities. Schools are really worried about the VAT and will be looking to cut costs wherever possible. Some schools have already announced that if VAT is brought in, they’ll scrap bursaries.

I don't understand your argument. You say it doesn't make sense economically. But it clearly does as the income from the vat will easily (several times over) cover 10% more kids being educated in state schools.

If they choose not to spend the extra money on education that's a different issue.

Regardless, I still believe Labour will fund education better than the Tories.

Have a ball but let’s revise this thread in a few years. A tax on hate and envy says quite a lot about KS. Also, let’s see if your worries are solved in the next 4 years of Labour. If they get in.

We will have to disagree I'm afraid.

I think the vast majority will just pay up so its not going to be an issue despite what a few on here claim.

I mean we have disabled people on benefits living in fear of the proposed overhaul of the system. Some of the most vulnerable people who have been dealt an awful hand in life relying on foodbanks or going hungry. It's hard to get worked up about the most privileged in our society having to pay VAT on an individual choice they have made.

EHCP funded students cannot be exempted. The EHCP is a legal document, that names the school for each student, in accordance with their needs. If that school is an independent school, whether mainstream or special, the school invoices the Local Authority for their fees (if fees have been agreed as part of the EHCP provision). Independent schools are exactly that, independent - you cannot require them to charge students with an EHCP lower fees. Therefore, the extra 20% will be paid by the Local Authority i.e. the taxpayer.

I don't think any of this is true really. Parental support is a bigger predictor of academic success than anything else. Kids with supportive parents can and do get good grades anywhere. And state school children who haven't had intensive spoon feeding at school often find it easier to cope with university.

Most people can't afford private school anyway, regardless of how crap their state school options are.

I am not sure what threads you are reading but none of the ones I have seen or contributed to have been asking others for sympathy or said not to vote for labour based on this policy.

The reality is those who are least well off will suffer the most from this policy. The wealthiest can afford the private schools and will not bat an eyelid. Those like us will be moving to state at the next transition point. We are both in professional reasonably well-paid careers (far from super wealthy) and chose private primary for the wrap around care to allow both of us to progress our careers. The demographic in our school is pretty much exactly the same and historically, most have gone onto private secondary as parents' careers have progressed and been able to afford the fees. However, in recent times school fees rises have far outstripped inflation and wage rises. Cost of living and mortgages have gone up. Add the threat of VAT and we are one of many families who have moved into catchment of good state secondaries. Our school historically sent 90% onto private secondaries. With the VAT threat (labour not even in power), this has dropped to 50% for the current leavers and set to drop even further by next year.

To add to it, I will be dropping my hours to 0.5 or even less when they hit secondary as I dont need to work to pay fees taking me out of the 50% tax bracket entirely. Less NHS hours for an already stretched service. Triple whammy as far as cost to the state goes - and we are one of many families doing the same.

Those who lose out are the ones on the border of the catchment areas of the better schools who otherwise may have got in. Or those who cannot afford to stop at nothing in tutoring for grammar/super selective entrance).

Let's be clear, no parent who had their child in private (or considered it) will even look at an underperfoming school - they will be using those funds to make sure their child gets the best state education they can possibly afford.

Labour have found the best way to widen the inequality gap and make the majority believe they are doing it for the right reasons to get votes. The reality is all those who are delighted about it are those most likely to be negatively impacted. The biggest shame in all this is that they have not revealed their agenda for any of the other issues the OP has mentioned - they will have my vote in a heartbeat if they can actually address this

It's a good job the state grammar school system was mostly dismantled. We can't have the working classes getting above their station now can we!!

Quite frankly if it doesn't work for me I will leave and go to another country, business and all. I would pack it all in.
Ultimately the UK loses not me.
I know several families who have their houses up for rent and have left already.

I’m a private school parent OP. My child is in a fully funded private specialist school as he is severely dyslexic and has something called verbal dyspraxia (the same condition as Chris Kamara). He was in main stream school until the end of year 4 when the gap between him and his peers was huge and continued to widen.
If private schools have to pay VAT on top of the fees, I cannot afford this. Then what? Back into mainstream where he’ll get lost in the system?
I appreciate that we’re fortunate that he’s in a local autority funded school place- however private school parents and places are not universally the same- lots of children go to them for whatever reason, and like me lots of parents are stressing of where they’re going to find this additional money from.

Huh? How is it immature to care about issues that directly impact your own life?!? That's the whole point in voting to allow people to vote on issues that are important to them.

Voting for something that will have a direct negative effect on you is just stupid. 🤷‍♀️

Labour have lost my vote because the VAT on schools will directly impact me and my child's life.

Someone is bound to set up a school/s where you pay the teachers directly, meals etc separately or children bring their own lunch etc. There will be all sorts different models to reduce the tax burden for families.
Alternatively external services where the above takes place.

Any private school closing is not going to result in state school kids being kicked out of their schools to give an ex-private school kid a place. The private school kids will have to take what is available, whether that is in a naice school locally or a complete hellhole. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

For people jumping ship at transition points (reception, Y3, Y7 etc) then they'll take their chances in the admission processes like everyone else. It will be a couple of years before it all settles down, but given most state schools are seeing declining rolls, it won't be a big issue.