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to enjoy hearing Paula Vennels being taken apart?

1000 replies

Sausagenbacon · 22/05/2024 10:50

Is anyone else listening - radio 5 at the moment. Paula Vennels being slowly picked apart by an expert?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
drusth · 23/05/2024 12:47

GoldenMalicious · 23/05/2024 12:36

It's curious and uncomfortable to watch this as a former POL employee and to read in parallel the analysis that others draw from what they see and hear. I will freely admit that there will inevitably be some 'unconscious bias' on my part because it is so difficult to come to terms with the scenario that Post Office senior managers (and I was one) were inherently evil and involved in some large scale cover up. Equally, I find that I listen to the evidence and understand the explanations being given by the witnesses only to find those picked apart by others - I am left wondering if that is because I don't want to see the alternative, or whether my lived experience within the organisation gives a perspective that is difficult to explain to those on the outside looking in. Equally I may just be short of critical thinking skills which appears to have been a fairly widespread phenomenon in POL. In any case, my take on what we see and hear is very different to that of many others. For avoidance of doubt, I accept completely that these subpostmasters should never have been prosecuted nor financially ruined.

I've said here before that I found Paula to be one of the most sincere and approachable CEOs - who knows, perhaps that was to her detriment, but to me she was a CEO that created an environment that was motivating in which to work. She was the one to really hammer home the fact that Post Office was nothing without its subpostmasters and she was very clear that the culture of the business should switch to seeing them as central to everything that we did, rather than as 'servants' (my word) of the wider organisation. While some see her tears as fake or self pitying, I can imagine that to someone who was as passionate about Post Office as Paula came across to be, that her tears are a sign of genuine regret.

Equally, I find that I listen to the evidence and understand the explanations being given by the witnesses only to find those picked apart by others - I am left wondering if that is because I don't want to see the alternative, or whether my lived experience within the organisation gives a perspective that is difficult to explain to those on the outside looking in.

Yes, I'm afraid if you can't see how bad this all is then you don't want to see the alternative. Can you share your lived experience?

I'm afraid you are part of what has been described as 'institutional obstinacy' in POL.

You are emotionally invested in believing POL did no wrong and it was all Horizon's fault.

frankentall · 23/05/2024 12:49

Saying things like "people are our most important asset" isn't enough. It has to be backed up by actions, or else it's meaningless gaslighting.

KTheGrey · 23/05/2024 12:55

@GoldenMalicious I can believe she didn't know what she claims she didn't know, but that raises questions about her competence. She may have talked a good game about the subpostmasters, but she didn't support or protect them when she would have had to rock the boat a bit to get that done.

I used to work with a very personable woman who talks a great game, but does not really give a damn about anything except her idea of herself, and creates grief and havoc wherever she goes.

It happens.

DanielGault · 23/05/2024 12:57

KTheGrey · 23/05/2024 12:55

@GoldenMalicious I can believe she didn't know what she claims she didn't know, but that raises questions about her competence. She may have talked a good game about the subpostmasters, but she didn't support or protect them when she would have had to rock the boat a bit to get that done.

I used to work with a very personable woman who talks a great game, but does not really give a damn about anything except her idea of herself, and creates grief and havoc wherever she goes.

It happens.

'promoted to the level of ones incompetence ' seems to be very true!

Circumferences · 23/05/2024 13:05

GoldenMalicious · 23/05/2024 12:36

It's curious and uncomfortable to watch this as a former POL employee and to read in parallel the analysis that others draw from what they see and hear. I will freely admit that there will inevitably be some 'unconscious bias' on my part because it is so difficult to come to terms with the scenario that Post Office senior managers (and I was one) were inherently evil and involved in some large scale cover up. Equally, I find that I listen to the evidence and understand the explanations being given by the witnesses only to find those picked apart by others - I am left wondering if that is because I don't want to see the alternative, or whether my lived experience within the organisation gives a perspective that is difficult to explain to those on the outside looking in. Equally I may just be short of critical thinking skills which appears to have been a fairly widespread phenomenon in POL. In any case, my take on what we see and hear is very different to that of many others. For avoidance of doubt, I accept completely that these subpostmasters should never have been prosecuted nor financially ruined.

I've said here before that I found Paula to be one of the most sincere and approachable CEOs - who knows, perhaps that was to her detriment, but to me she was a CEO that created an environment that was motivating in which to work. She was the one to really hammer home the fact that Post Office was nothing without its subpostmasters and she was very clear that the culture of the business should switch to seeing them as central to everything that we did, rather than as 'servants' (my word) of the wider organisation. While some see her tears as fake or self pitying, I can imagine that to someone who was as passionate about Post Office as Paula came across to be, that her tears are a sign of genuine regret.

ODFOD

TheTartfulLodger · 23/05/2024 13:14

Captivating viewing. Practically every question is replied to with either -

'I don't recall',

'I don't remember ',

Or

'I wasn't involved '.

Surely she must be able to see how badly she is coming out of this?

ALovelyCupOfNameChange · 23/05/2024 13:21

GoldenMalicious · 23/05/2024 12:36

It's curious and uncomfortable to watch this as a former POL employee and to read in parallel the analysis that others draw from what they see and hear. I will freely admit that there will inevitably be some 'unconscious bias' on my part because it is so difficult to come to terms with the scenario that Post Office senior managers (and I was one) were inherently evil and involved in some large scale cover up. Equally, I find that I listen to the evidence and understand the explanations being given by the witnesses only to find those picked apart by others - I am left wondering if that is because I don't want to see the alternative, or whether my lived experience within the organisation gives a perspective that is difficult to explain to those on the outside looking in. Equally I may just be short of critical thinking skills which appears to have been a fairly widespread phenomenon in POL. In any case, my take on what we see and hear is very different to that of many others. For avoidance of doubt, I accept completely that these subpostmasters should never have been prosecuted nor financially ruined.

I've said here before that I found Paula to be one of the most sincere and approachable CEOs - who knows, perhaps that was to her detriment, but to me she was a CEO that created an environment that was motivating in which to work. She was the one to really hammer home the fact that Post Office was nothing without its subpostmasters and she was very clear that the culture of the business should switch to seeing them as central to everything that we did, rather than as 'servants' (my word) of the wider organisation. While some see her tears as fake or self pitying, I can imagine that to someone who was as passionate about Post Office as Paula came across to be, that her tears are a sign of genuine regret.

I can see where your coming from and I also wonder how much was kept from her (it’s certainly the angle beer is going for).
Thats not a defence, she should have probed more, she should have made sure people were doing their jobs not trusting that it was taken care of.
I think there were people around her who were much more complicit in protecting the brand and believing its infallible

Peregrina · 23/05/2024 13:24

I can imagine that to someone who was as passionate about Post Office as Paula came across to be, that her tears are a sign of genuine regret.

Since when did being passionate mean that you had to suspend critical thinking? Nothing I have seen so far suggests that she had an open mind and wanted to get to the bottom of what had been happening. Some of which was before her time there admittedly which she can't be held responsible for.

DanielGault · 23/05/2024 13:25

TheTartfulLodger · 23/05/2024 13:14

Captivating viewing. Practically every question is replied to with either -

'I don't recall',

'I don't remember ',

Or

'I wasn't involved '.

Surely she must be able to see how badly she is coming out of this?

I'd say she's going home every evening to a pint of gin tbh. Helps block out the pesky memories and alleviate the stress of the excruciating grilling on national telly 😂

nauticant · 23/05/2024 13:26

When the Report of the Inquiry comes out GoldenMalicious it will be essential reading for you to recalibrate your view of Vennells as a senior manager and CEO.

Peregrina · 23/05/2024 13:26

But her excruciating grilling is no worse than innocent people being sent to prison, or being made bankrupt and having livelihoods destroyed because of a dodgy IT system.

ALovelyCupOfNameChange · 23/05/2024 13:28

frankentall · 23/05/2024 12:49

Saying things like "people are our most important asset" isn't enough. It has to be backed up by actions, or else it's meaningless gaslighting.

I’ve certainly worked in places like that, where they say that whilst also quietly working on mass relocations or redundancies

DanielGault · 23/05/2024 13:30

ALovelyCupOfNameChange · 23/05/2024 13:28

I’ve certainly worked in places like that, where they say that whilst also quietly working on mass relocations or redundancies

When organisations need to actually say things like that, it's because they know their employees don't feel it.

GoldenMalicious · 23/05/2024 13:31

drusth · 23/05/2024 12:47

Equally, I find that I listen to the evidence and understand the explanations being given by the witnesses only to find those picked apart by others - I am left wondering if that is because I don't want to see the alternative, or whether my lived experience within the organisation gives a perspective that is difficult to explain to those on the outside looking in.

Yes, I'm afraid if you can't see how bad this all is then you don't want to see the alternative. Can you share your lived experience?

I'm afraid you are part of what has been described as 'institutional obstinacy' in POL.

You are emotionally invested in believing POL did no wrong and it was all Horizon's fault.

Edited

To clarify - much of the evidence of POL witnesses is awful and shows varying levels of incompetence, concealment and/or arrogance. However, there are some aspects of evidence given that others are heavily critical of, but which I don't necessarily see in quite the same way.

An example would be around the incredulity towards the idea that people within POL didn't understand the fact that we brought about our own prosecutions. In the 1990s I was well aware that the investigators had a reputation that preceded them. My husband worked in branches during this period and tells of his own experience when a shortfall arose in his till. However, I was not aware that the powers of Post Office were unusual in carrying out its own prosecutions. I think Paula referred to the fact that this ongoing investigative role was so well established that it didn't register with her that POL was doing anything more than another organisation that dealt with large sums of money. I appreciate that as CEO there was more obligation on Paula to understand the scope of what POL did, but I was nodding along as she kept saying that this was not something of which she was made aware.

Not Paula but earlier witnesses were repeatedly pushed on where the idea came from that 'Horizon was robust'. Witness after witness referred to this as a widely understood message and it was certainly a message that I also recognised as one which was shared across the business.

In respect of Paula and her email re 'I need to be able to say that remote access is not possible' (I paraphrase). This is one where I have to question my own bias. It is exactly the sort of thing I would say - not to direct the answer but rather to be clear that the answer needs to be that specific and a more general or waffly response would not suffice. However, I acknowledge that the wording coming from a CEO will carry more weight and could have been perceived as a direction rather than anything else.

On the whole, my experience of POL was that there was a tendency to point fingers and seek out someone to blame when something went wrong. I don't have much experience outside of POL to know how typical this is, but within POL I think that mindset led to a reluctance throughout the organisation to own up to issues, and instead to sweep issues under the carpet and trust that they wouldn't emerge unless a wise person looked in the right place. POL teams also had a tendency to operate within silos and so there was not the widespread practice of working across teams which might have created more challenge to team-level 'group think'. And that idea of 'group think' is one that I think played a significant part in this scandal, such as in the communications messages around Horizon's robustness. I would also say that there was a quite 'insular' feel to the organisation - us against the rest of the world. That view is hard to demonstrate (and wouldn't stand up to any of Mr Beer's analysis) but is my own perception. The notion of us as protectors of tax payers' money is perhaps symptomatic of this.

I don't believe that POL did no wrong as you put it. Things went badly wrong and I will continue to follow the inquiry and conversations here (and elsewhere) even when I find that difficult and uncomfortable.

Peregrina · 23/05/2024 13:41

I think Paula referred to the fact that this ongoing investigative role was so well established that it didn't register with her that POL was doing anything more than another organisation that dealt with large sums of money.

But then I recall her saying that she didn't even realise that there was such a large group, because it was smaller by the time she found out. So how come she didn't know if it was well established?

I think most of us the the general public hearing about these prosecutions would not have realised that they were not as a result of police investigations. Nor should we know, but we weren't being paid a silly salary to run the organisation.

Berlinlover · 23/05/2024 13:43

littlbrowndog · 22/05/2024 11:08

Exactly. People were jailed and committed suicide. On her watch

I didn’t know that anyone died by suicide, that’s absolutely awful.

HomelessAngua · 23/05/2024 13:44

Shame she didn't take time to read Computer Weekly or Private Eye, she would have learned a lot!

DanielGault · 23/05/2024 13:45

Berlinlover · 23/05/2024 13:43

I didn’t know that anyone died by suicide, that’s absolutely awful.

You should watch the dramatisation. It's shocking.

SinnerBoy · 23/05/2024 13:49

She claims to have been too trusting. It's the equivalent of a primary school kid saying, "Someone else made me do it, then told!"

OK, go to the time out corner for the rest of the lesson...

TheTartfulLodger · 23/05/2024 13:53

DanielGault · 23/05/2024 13:25

I'd say she's going home every evening to a pint of gin tbh. Helps block out the pesky memories and alleviate the stress of the excruciating grilling on national telly 😂

I particularly like that way that Every. Single. Time. She answers 'I didn't know', the barrister promptly pulls up an email from her own account which shows that she did in fact know, leaving her stunned into silence 😂

TheTartfulLodger · 23/05/2024 13:54

Berlinlover · 23/05/2024 13:43

I didn’t know that anyone died by suicide, that’s absolutely awful.

And pregnant woman jailed I believe.

nauticant · 23/05/2024 13:54

What I want to see is for Jason Beer KC to ask why Susan Crichton would withhold such vital documents from Vennells? Where, if what Vennells is saying is true, this was done on so many occasions, and with such vital documents, that it couldn't have been accidental.

Quirkyme · 23/05/2024 13:54

@TheTartfulLodger

No way. I did not know a pregnant woman was jailed wtf

nauticant · 23/05/2024 13:55

That was Seema Misra.

BigDahliaFan · 23/05/2024 13:57

@GoldenMalicious that's a fascinating experience and a different take on it.

I

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