To expect school to constantly supervise a violent child?

[SuzieBHappy]

Sorry for length of this, will try not to drop feed.

Uk - state primary school.

It has come to light that my 8 year old (autistic) son has been being constantly assaulted by someone who in his mind was his friend, let’s call him Bill.

For context, Bill is a child who lots of parents have raised concerns about. Lots of general hitting, swearing, mum not receptive at all to discussing anything and is ‘that mum’ who always drops and leaves at parties,

It was along the lines of ‘if you don’t do X I will kick you’. DS, being autistic, is quite fixated on rules, so often wouldn’t follow the instructions and therefore ended up with so many bruises I nearly took him to GP as I was concerned he had an underlying health condition. He isn’t a particularly physical or sporty child so the bruises really confused me, but DS wouldn’t tell me where they were from and school were clueless too. DS behaviour also changed, calling himself ‘the destroyer’, he was just way more ancy at home, and on two occasions DS attacked other children at school (one provoked, one unprovoked). This all went on for about 18 months of me trying to work out what on earth was going on and not getting anywhere.

Anyway eventually an incident happened and my DS told me everything. We explained that he doesn’t need to do what Bill says, that as soon as these threats or assaults happen he needs to tell his class teacher. We explained to DS that Bill really isn’t very nice and he is best to stay away from him. I met with the safeguarding lead and talked it all through in detail, and school agreed to separate them for a while, while they worked on the behaviours with Bill. All the while school implied it was all isolated, that it really wasn’t Bill’s nature, even know I know that is BS because I have heard of lots of other incidents as am friends with quite a few of the mums. But I went along with their claims as if I believed them at the time, for peace sake.

Anyway - It worked, and DS has literally changed into a different child / back to his old self. Haven’t heard him call himself the destroyer at all since, he is sleeping way better, huge huge marked change. DS has fully decided that Bill is ‘bad news’ and stays away from him, but isn’t unkind to him.

However, Bill is still friends with DS friends and therefore these incidents still occasionally happen. Have just looked back over my notes and it is tending to be every 6-8 weeks that my child is still getting attacked (both being hit / pushed / sworn at etc etc), two physical assaults since it all came to light.

Today Bill also attacked (strangled / head-locked) an unrelated 5 year old very quiet child.

On both last three incidents that we know of (two involving my DS, plus today 5yo), no adult has seen what happened so there is confusion as to how serious it was (was DS pushed or kicked. How did DS end up on floor etc etc).

So my ‘AIBU’ is - is it ok to question (again, I have raised before and not got an answer And so has at least one other parent, so will potentially need to escalate to head teacher and then to governors if want to persue) why this child who clearly has violent tendencies is being left unattended at playtimes. Or is it just unrealistic to expect school to constantly supervise and I just have to accept that my child will continue to be attacked ‘occasionally’ and continue to be terrified of this child? I am fairly sure constant supervision will be the only way to fully ensure that this doesn’t happen, and I know Bill currently doesn’t have any higher needs funding or a one-to-one or anything.

so…

yabu - ‘that’s life, DS will just have to toughen up, and we will have to continue to liaise with school for each incident, which thankfully are less frequent than they were. It’s not realistic to think that school can completely stop this.’

yanbu - this isn’t acceptable and I am being gaslighted by school into thinking that I just need to accept this as normal child issues. Bill needs to be constantly supervised at all times for other children’s safety and wellbeing. Get together with other affected mums if needs be to prove to the school that we are fully aware that they are not in any way isolated incidents and push for constant supervision of Bill.

I have a really good relationship with the school, and am really aware that going in all guns blazing will be really unhelpful in future if my ask is just totally unrealistic.

YABU to think that the school is able to supervise this child at all times.
YANBU to think that the school could do more.

There is a Bill in my son's class (year 1) and it took a bit of pushing from my end / speaking to the family liaison officer but it worked and Bill is never allowed anywhere near my child ever again. The teacher is brilliant at enforcing this and for ages there have been no incidents. The mum of the Bill in my son's class is absolutely useless and thinks her precious child can do no wrong and besides having a 'gentle chat' with him what can she do. This infuriates me so I just avoid her at all costs! So now no bill and no bill's bloody mum- bliss! Keep persevering op.

Im sorry this happens. Schools are tied to accepting and allowing any behaviour with a sen diagnosis. It’s ridiculous. As a teacher the stuff that goes on under the guise of sen is a joke. Schools have no staff to 1-1 supervise. He would need to be in a special ed or pru for that.

I agreed. I've been teaching to some extent for 40 yrs. Schools will often pander to the parents of the violent child because they often make the most noise.

I hate to say this, but OP needs to make more noise. You'll be called 'difficult'. Ignore it.

I don’t understand this though, my son is autistic and has an ehcp and he used to get fixed term exclusions for much less than this, it helped us get specialist in end as it’s proof the school can’t meet needs

Make more of a fuss. We have a ‘Bill’ whose parents use every excuse under the sun for his appalling behaviour which has included strangling, stamping, spitting, sexual comments to other pupils - the list goes on and on.

The parents make so much fuss about Bill being entitled to his schooling that the head and the class teacher have admitted their hands are tied.

If your Bill is 10 or over then get the police involved too if there has been an assault. Don’t pull any punches - your child is not at school to be another pupil’s emotional or physical punch bag.

This.

Of course young children will have occassional skirmishes, but this has gone way beyond the odd shove in temper. No adult would be expected to tolerate this level of verbal and physical abuse in their work place, and no child should be subjected to it at school.

Your son could one day be badly hurt by this child. My approach would be not so much about saying "i want you to do x/y/z with Bill", but "how do you intend to keep my child safe?" If they can't or won't come up with a concrete plan and reassurance, i'd be taking it to the governors.

I imagine that there is a level of discretion that schools employ when dealing with challenging behaviour. For example if they know there's exceptional circumstances going on in a child's life and they may have SS or other agencies pushing to keep that child in school. That in itself isn't necessarily a problem, but the lack of resource to follow it through in the best way possible is a problem. I don't think it's feasible to expect the school to watch this child all the time but I agree there could be more done and I'd be asking the school what strategies they're currently employing to manage this and what else could be done. I'd be pushing hard to try and get them to give you some more alternative solutions. It sounds like this has been ongoing for a long time so it's also long enough that you'd expect to be seeing an improvement.

Without a 1-2-1, I’m not sure how they could constantly supervise him.

I’m guessing that most of this happens at break or lunch time? Teachers are generally not on duty, so it would be up to, maybe half a dozen, TAs to watch him, when they’re probably supervising a few hundred children.

This is probably the reason these things keep happening, in my eyes if a child is regularly attacking other children on the playground they shouldn't be allowed out, but unfortunately schools probably aren't allowed to do this.

I'm not sure about procedures in the rest of the UK, but when I was a HoD in Scotland, I'd send the SLT an email demanding that they put in place a Risk Assessment for violent pupils.

I don't think the OP can make such a demand, but she might try dropping into the conversation that she is angry about the fact that her child has been injured and that she assumes that now that the school is aware, an appropriate Risk Assessment will have been put in place to ensure that the violent pupil is unable to cause her child further harm.

From the other perspective - my son is a 'Bill'. Or at least he used to be. He is autistic and has ADHD and he lashes out. I begged his school for more supervision. They said they couldn't afford it. I applied for an EHCP and it was rejected. It's horrible being on this end too.

My dd was the bill too Echp rejected. Expelled from primary school. Calls to collect daily it wasn't nice on this side too.

This sounds like a sacrifice of the many in the name of inclusivity.

Why is it OK for lots of children to fear going to school, or to come home upset on a regular basis, just so that one child is included?

It's a numbers game and a no-brainer, surely?

There was a Bill in my DS’s class too. He thankfully has moved now.

Parents are “pillars of the community” types - school reluctant to say anything to them for years incase they stopped pouring money into the school (VA).

When the school finally did, after something I reported, the flounced and moved him to private school.

School also would pretend anything they hadn’t literally seen happening didn’t exist, although there was often plenty of evidence.

My son has ADHD and an EHCP - he is the anti-Bill - couldn’t be more different.

Our Bill was neurodivergent in some way but everyone was scared of him - and wanted the perks of his friendship as paid for by his parents - so towed his line.

I’m a TA. We have a Bill - he’s only been at the school four weeks. I’ve been pulled away from the class I’m supposed to be with to be with him as he is violent. We don’t have money for additional adults.

This means the Y1 class I am supposed to be with haven’t got the support and the needy children in there are struggling without someone to sit next to them to help.
I follow him around like a hawk but even then I’ve missed bits. For example, a child talks to me and I look at them to answer, or help with a zip - and he’s off and done something. I’m not magic, I can’t always stop everything. And it definitely takes away from the other children.

It’s nobody’s fault - but there’s no money in the system to support these children. School
should definitely do
some but maybe they can’t. To have adults you need money and if there’s no money then they can’t offer 1-2-1. It’s not ok and it’s not right but it’s the reality of the system at the moment.

Yes, very true. Unfortunately the broken system is failing everyone.

I’d be telling my child to thump Bill very, very hard should he ever try anything again.

Totally agree. You can add the staff in with the children too. Two injured this week and another in floods of tears today because of "Bill." Cortisol levels are through the roof.

The Bill in our school has a mother who is chair of the PTFA. He strangles other children. The school are terrified of the mother so do nothing.
I’m sick of ordinary families having to make allowances everywhere. Don’t make your problem everyone else’s.

We had similar and they just kept excusing him or rewarding him with 1 on 1 forest school and other. Parents useless and child was free range on the streets from an early age. There was also a ridiculous 'no blame' policy which effectively meant no consequences.

In every case the child was expelled once getting to high school due to appalling behaviour. But not sure why primaries do nothing.

Our Bill used to pinch and kick his classmates in the head about once a week. Clearly this could easily have resulted in serious and permanent harm. He moved to a different area after a couple of years. Fortunately no permanent harm was done. I was beside myself that I was sending my little dd into a place that was not physically safe for her. The school were really unhelpful which was shocking.

I probably should have taken my dd out of school but this would have been a logistical nightmare involving us moving house and both of us changing jobs. But probably I should still have done it. Honestly it's just not ok that schools do not keep kids safe.

Not pinch, PUNCH

Can the school not start the process or the parents to get the funding for more help? That sounds like a ridiculous situation. A couple of kids in our class have 1-2-1s funded. Then we have the usual TA for each class.