To expect school to constantly supervise a violent child?

[SuzieBHappy]

Sorry for length of this, will try not to drop feed.

Uk - state primary school.

It has come to light that my 8 year old (autistic) son has been being constantly assaulted by someone who in his mind was his friend, let’s call him Bill.

For context, Bill is a child who lots of parents have raised concerns about. Lots of general hitting, swearing, mum not receptive at all to discussing anything and is ‘that mum’ who always drops and leaves at parties,

It was along the lines of ‘if you don’t do X I will kick you’. DS, being autistic, is quite fixated on rules, so often wouldn’t follow the instructions and therefore ended up with so many bruises I nearly took him to GP as I was concerned he had an underlying health condition. He isn’t a particularly physical or sporty child so the bruises really confused me, but DS wouldn’t tell me where they were from and school were clueless too. DS behaviour also changed, calling himself ‘the destroyer’, he was just way more ancy at home, and on two occasions DS attacked other children at school (one provoked, one unprovoked). This all went on for about 18 months of me trying to work out what on earth was going on and not getting anywhere.

Anyway eventually an incident happened and my DS told me everything. We explained that he doesn’t need to do what Bill says, that as soon as these threats or assaults happen he needs to tell his class teacher. We explained to DS that Bill really isn’t very nice and he is best to stay away from him. I met with the safeguarding lead and talked it all through in detail, and school agreed to separate them for a while, while they worked on the behaviours with Bill. All the while school implied it was all isolated, that it really wasn’t Bill’s nature, even know I know that is BS because I have heard of lots of other incidents as am friends with quite a few of the mums. But I went along with their claims as if I believed them at the time, for peace sake.

Anyway - It worked, and DS has literally changed into a different child / back to his old self. Haven’t heard him call himself the destroyer at all since, he is sleeping way better, huge huge marked change. DS has fully decided that Bill is ‘bad news’ and stays away from him, but isn’t unkind to him.

However, Bill is still friends with DS friends and therefore these incidents still occasionally happen. Have just looked back over my notes and it is tending to be every 6-8 weeks that my child is still getting attacked (both being hit / pushed / sworn at etc etc), two physical assaults since it all came to light.

Today Bill also attacked (strangled / head-locked) an unrelated 5 year old very quiet child.

On both last three incidents that we know of (two involving my DS, plus today 5yo), no adult has seen what happened so there is confusion as to how serious it was (was DS pushed or kicked. How did DS end up on floor etc etc).

So my ‘AIBU’ is - is it ok to question (again, I have raised before and not got an answer And so has at least one other parent, so will potentially need to escalate to head teacher and then to governors if want to persue) why this child who clearly has violent tendencies is being left unattended at playtimes. Or is it just unrealistic to expect school to constantly supervise and I just have to accept that my child will continue to be attacked ‘occasionally’ and continue to be terrified of this child? I am fairly sure constant supervision will be the only way to fully ensure that this doesn’t happen, and I know Bill currently doesn’t have any higher needs funding or a one-to-one or anything.

so…

yabu - ‘that’s life, DS will just have to toughen up, and we will have to continue to liaise with school for each incident, which thankfully are less frequent than they were. It’s not realistic to think that school can completely stop this.’

yanbu - this isn’t acceptable and I am being gaslighted by school into thinking that I just need to accept this as normal child issues. Bill needs to be constantly supervised at all times for other children’s safety and wellbeing. Get together with other affected mums if needs be to prove to the school that we are fully aware that they are not in any way isolated incidents and push for constant supervision of Bill.

I have a really good relationship with the school, and am really aware that going in all guns blazing will be really unhelpful in future if my ask is just totally unrealistic.

It's not one size fits all though particularly if the child is academically able .

Firstly it takes a long time, the process is slow, so the school maybe has already applied and are waiting to determine of the LA will agree to an assessment. But secondly sometimes there isnt enough evidence, the poster says he has been at the school for 4 weeks, thats not enough logs and reports and stats to use in an EHCP, we are regularly told schools need a couple of terms in order to gather the evidence in order to put it in and then let the process take its course

How quickly do you think these things happen?

And when he does get his EHCP, perhaps on the basis of SEMH, perhaps he has a formal diagnosis of something we dont know, what difference do you think that will make? If he is given a 1-1, that doesnt mean he has a separate worker with him all the hours of the day in school.

Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of bad and violent behaviour is often linked to a diagnosis of some sort, which means that instead of being disciplined or excluded, many of these out of control children are allowed to make the lives of pupils and staff misery because of their right to be included.

I long for the day when bad behaviour doesn't come with a label which means they offender never has to answer for their actions while the rest of the class, staff included, are expected to put up with their daily lives being made a misery.

Not all bad behaviour is a condition although it seems a sin to state this.

If the principle of "For the Greater Good" was accepted, it would be much better.
If a teacher was able to say,

'Look, there are thirty children in my class and one of them is violent and making it difficult for me to teach and impossible for the others to learn. This one child takes up most of my time, depriving the other children. If this one child was removed-in extremis let them stay at home- it will be better for the other 29. One child's "right" to be included cannot trump the right of the other 29. The welfare of the majority must prevail."

If a teacher could say that, be listened to and her views acted upon-the class would be a happier, more productive place. At the moment, one child is allowed to blight the future of the others and that can't be right or fair.

It should take 20 weeks yes I know that's not usually the reality
A child can be funded for a full time 1:1
Is there not reports from nursery etc
My son is 14 now and his school nursery started the ball rolling ,he started reception in a special school, with a statement as it was then

That was the point of my previous post about inclusivity. We have as a society decided that inclusivity is a goal above and beyond the good of the group.

The groups needs as a majority are seen as not worthy, the individuals needs must take precedent.

Society signed up to this, the popular narrative is that individualism, being your true self, being 'special' and different is all important and must be met by the majority. Thats what I mean by 'everyone' even though Im not in that group myself and neither are many others!

Its 20 weeks from when the agreement is given.

Not all systems or LA would accept logs from nursery

You say a child can be funded a full time 1-1, that does not mean an individual person allocated to that child on their own all day. The school gets some extra funding yes, it goes into their overall pot, its never enough to fund a specific worker for one child only.

Even if you could get someone.

It’s 20 weeks from when the agreement is given.

No, it is 20 weeks for the EHNCA request. It is not from the agreement to assess or agree to issue.

Not all systems or LA would accept logs from nursery

Such a blanket policy would be unlawful. A school making a request for e.g. a reception child absolutely can use information from nursery. LAs should consider all evidence and SENDIST would consider all evidence.

If he is given a 1-1, that doesnt mean he has a separate worker with him all the hours of the day in school.

If a full time 1:1 is detailed, specified and quantified in F it absolutely can mean someone with the child all day. If it includes break and lunch it would typically be more than one person but it can mean someone with providing 1:1 at all times. SEP detailed, specified and quantified in F is a legal requirement and can be enforced.

An EHCP is a legal document if it states that a child needs to have a 1:1 full time that needs to happen otherwise the school are breaking the law ,I know it doesn't need ti be the same person at times.

Just to give you the other side. My autistic son was a Bill in year r and 1. The children in his class suffered, he suffered and we as a family suffered. It was horrible and I was in the school constantly to help calm him down and begging slt to provide him with more support, apply for an ehcp, keep him in at break and lunch etc. He asked to stay in at breaks too as he knew he couldn’t handle the noise. The school even said he would deliberately misbehave before breaks to try and get kept in as a punishment. They wouldn’t allow this though until it was put in his ehcp.

I had to apply for an EHCP myself, spend a fortune on private reports to help us understand what environment he needs and take the SEN department to tribunal as even after he had his ehcp in year 2 they couldn’t find him a school place for him and left him in mainstream despite admitting it wasn’t suitable.

It isn’t putting the 1 SEN child’s needs ahead of all the other children. Their needs are also being neglected too or they wouldn’t be behaving that way. My son hasn’t had a violent incident in over 2 years since he got the right support. He’s back to his happy self. It’s the system that’s letting all our children down. It took me 3 years of fighting to get the right support in place and I was distraught for him and all the children in his class.

I completely understand parents being upset by the impact this has on their children who get caught in the crossfire. But I just wanted to share that it isn’t SEN parents not caring or bothering to get their child the right support. It’s an absolute battle and it’s the system that is letting the children down. I know many SEN parents who have experienced the same. This is the norm.

My son's friend had a "bill" in his class who plagued him for years. The problem suddenly stopped one day and I asked the friend what happened. He got a sheepish look on his face and said "I smashed Bill's head against a tree and he hasn't bothered me since."

I'm not sure if this is a good answer but it certainly worked for our friend.

The friend then went to an expensive private school and met a new friend who also headlocked him until he turned purple. I'm not sure if school is that nice a place tbh.

I have never yet worked with a school that is able to or does provide a full time 1-1 that is ONLY for that child. Many may well be breaking the law but that is the reality, the system is not fit for purpose

I didnt say it was a blanket policy about the evidence required but often there just isnt enough to justify, which is why a school will wait a few terms. Nursery information is very different to school information, particularly bearing in mind the effect that transition has anyway

No it doesnt need to be the same person all day, but often its simply not viable or in place at all.

My ds was 'bill' at the start of primary but once he had an EHCP and the right support he thrived in mainstream. I also don't understand the view that if a child has sen they can't be punished. Both we and the school punished him for bad behaviour. Yes he has sen which explained why he struggled in certain situations but that has never meant hurting others is ok.

Regarding it taking 20 weeks to complete an ehcp. Las break this rule repeatedly. I had to submit a formal complaint which they upheld but still didn’t rectify. I then got my mp involved. In response the LA published my sons ehcp incomplete without the professionals recommendations included. They hadn’t even had the OT report back at that point. So it’s not as simple as waiting 20 weeks and then actually getting the support. Even with the support in there I had to badger the school and LA constantly to ensure he it was provided.

Any parent whose child has 1:1 (full time or otherwise) detailed, specified and quantified in F but isn’t receiving it should be supported to enforce the provision. Parents don't have to accept it. Sadly, DC whose parents know the law and enforce their DC’s rights get better support. I know many who have full time 1:1 actually delivered. Some of them only have it because their parents have enforced their rights. Schools sharing 1:1 support that is detailed, specified and quantified in F with other students is leaving themselves and the LA open to legal action.

You posted* *“Not all systems or LA would accept logs from nursery”. Any LA or system saying that does have a blanket policy that is unlawful. It is irrelevant it is different information or transition has happened. All information must be considered, legally. Waiting “a few terms” is not required. LA’s who insist on 2+ APDR cycles are acting unlawfully. Schools shouldn’t perpetuate such unlawful myths.

Where LAs breach the statutory timescales parents should threaten judicial review. If that doesn’t work, they need a pre-action letter. If that’s fails, they should pursue JR proceedings themselves. The normal complaints process isn’t an appropriate remedy in this case. Far better to go down the JR route. Similar for failure to deliver provision.

I did go down the judicial review route once and we had a SEN advocate. They agreed to give me and personal budget for therapy included in his ehcp. However. I then had to reduce my hours at work to take him and each time I sent them the invoice I had another fight on my hands! If I had to pay for a pre action letter for each hurdle I’d have had to declare myself bankrupt.

The issue is that the LA happily break the laws which delays the process which saves them money and causes further distress on the child. Also, unfortunately not every parent of a sen child has the knowledge/recourses to challenge the la so accept what’s happening to their child because they aren’t aware of their rights.

Which is why my previous post said parents should be supported to enforce their DC’s provision. This applies equally to other things such as timescales.

If I had to pay for a pre action letter for each hurdle I’d have had to declare myself bankrupt.

You wouldn’t. SOSSEN offer free pre-action letters for some things, including breach of statutory EHCP timescales and failure to provide SEP in F.

I then had to reduce my hours at work to take him

You should appeal next time you have the right of appeal. Parents can’t be compelled to take DC like this. Provision of someone to facilitate the SEP can be included in F which could then be enforced.

It is not just a question of funding, uou also need to find people prepared to do the job.. Not many people want to be punched and kicked on a regular basis

You’re unreasonable to think a school can constantly supervise Bill but my god the school should be doing so much more. It’s so unfair on the other 29 children that they are subjected to violence and that the teacher has to work in a violent workplace.

It depends on the disorder, he may not have a particular disorder (not asking you by the way), but many have issues like a PDA profile, ODD, FASD where consequences and sanctions are ineffective, counter productive etc. Low demand parenting strategies are needed.

Many of these issues are undiagnosed by the way.

I’m glad they offer that now. But they certainly didn’t.

The point is everything is a fight and it shouldn’t be.

I dont disagree with any of this, but the reality is that school staffing is decimated, SEN staffing within LAs is decimated. So no, assessment times are usually way over, 1-1 isnt enforced or supplied.

Talk of JR and enforcement, fair enough, but there simply arent the bodies on teh ground to put things in place a lot of the time.

And I clarified before no one is saying and I didnt say there is a blanket policy about what information to include or not include but the reality is that if the evidence is not good enough, and often its not from nursery, then you've wasted time putting in an application that is going to be refused because the evidence is lacking quality. Thats why schools wait a few terms in many cases.

The point is everything is a fight and it shouldn’t be.

@TheAlertLimeGuide oh I agree with this.

SOSSEN’s PAP project has been around a while now, but they haven’t always done it.