To expect school to constantly supervise a violent child?

[SuzieBHappy]

Sorry for length of this, will try not to drop feed.

Uk - state primary school.

It has come to light that my 8 year old (autistic) son has been being constantly assaulted by someone who in his mind was his friend, let’s call him Bill.

For context, Bill is a child who lots of parents have raised concerns about. Lots of general hitting, swearing, mum not receptive at all to discussing anything and is ‘that mum’ who always drops and leaves at parties,

It was along the lines of ‘if you don’t do X I will kick you’. DS, being autistic, is quite fixated on rules, so often wouldn’t follow the instructions and therefore ended up with so many bruises I nearly took him to GP as I was concerned he had an underlying health condition. He isn’t a particularly physical or sporty child so the bruises really confused me, but DS wouldn’t tell me where they were from and school were clueless too. DS behaviour also changed, calling himself ‘the destroyer’, he was just way more ancy at home, and on two occasions DS attacked other children at school (one provoked, one unprovoked). This all went on for about 18 months of me trying to work out what on earth was going on and not getting anywhere.

Anyway eventually an incident happened and my DS told me everything. We explained that he doesn’t need to do what Bill says, that as soon as these threats or assaults happen he needs to tell his class teacher. We explained to DS that Bill really isn’t very nice and he is best to stay away from him. I met with the safeguarding lead and talked it all through in detail, and school agreed to separate them for a while, while they worked on the behaviours with Bill. All the while school implied it was all isolated, that it really wasn’t Bill’s nature, even know I know that is BS because I have heard of lots of other incidents as am friends with quite a few of the mums. But I went along with their claims as if I believed them at the time, for peace sake.

Anyway - It worked, and DS has literally changed into a different child / back to his old self. Haven’t heard him call himself the destroyer at all since, he is sleeping way better, huge huge marked change. DS has fully decided that Bill is ‘bad news’ and stays away from him, but isn’t unkind to him.

However, Bill is still friends with DS friends and therefore these incidents still occasionally happen. Have just looked back over my notes and it is tending to be every 6-8 weeks that my child is still getting attacked (both being hit / pushed / sworn at etc etc), two physical assaults since it all came to light.

Today Bill also attacked (strangled / head-locked) an unrelated 5 year old very quiet child.

On both last three incidents that we know of (two involving my DS, plus today 5yo), no adult has seen what happened so there is confusion as to how serious it was (was DS pushed or kicked. How did DS end up on floor etc etc).

So my ‘AIBU’ is - is it ok to question (again, I have raised before and not got an answer And so has at least one other parent, so will potentially need to escalate to head teacher and then to governors if want to persue) why this child who clearly has violent tendencies is being left unattended at playtimes. Or is it just unrealistic to expect school to constantly supervise and I just have to accept that my child will continue to be attacked ‘occasionally’ and continue to be terrified of this child? I am fairly sure constant supervision will be the only way to fully ensure that this doesn’t happen, and I know Bill currently doesn’t have any higher needs funding or a one-to-one or anything.

so…

yabu - ‘that’s life, DS will just have to toughen up, and we will have to continue to liaise with school for each incident, which thankfully are less frequent than they were. It’s not realistic to think that school can completely stop this.’

yanbu - this isn’t acceptable and I am being gaslighted by school into thinking that I just need to accept this as normal child issues. Bill needs to be constantly supervised at all times for other children’s safety and wellbeing. Get together with other affected mums if needs be to prove to the school that we are fully aware that they are not in any way isolated incidents and push for constant supervision of Bill.

I have a really good relationship with the school, and am really aware that going in all guns blazing will be really unhelpful in future if my ask is just totally unrealistic.

The answer to both your questions is no. You shouldn't allow your son to be assaulted, but nor should you expect information about how another child is being managed. You need to depersonalise this from Bill as you will keep meeting with brick walls when they refuse (correctly) to discuss him in detail with you. You need to focus on your child and stick to imparting information and asking questions about him. Keep it simple. "My child has been assaulted on these occasions. What is your plan to prevent this going forward?"

Yes. We have. But it takes time. There isn’t the money to get someone extra in now.

I'd agree with the PP, you need to report every incident and ask how they are keeping your child safe each time. I'd also maybe ask them if there is a problem in the school as you are aware of other incidents. But don't be focusing in on Bill, best to focus on your DS and other incidents and ask them what they are doing about it

This would be my last resort. Keep pushing with the school, but if the school are out of options, then yeah, tell you ds that the next time Bill hurts you, punch Bill in the face as hard as you possibly can.

There’s a ‘Bill’ at DS’ private school. He is man-marked during the school day but it isn’t possible for the school to do this during playtimes when most of the incidents happen. DS used to be a target until he hit back & now he’s found a new target.

I had something similar when my child was in year one, the final straw was the other child leaving marks on my sons neck from trying to strangle him, I pushed and spoke with the head , with a view to making a complaint over this and the child in question got moved to another class lower down , ( as only one class in that year) it was either that or he be removed from the school, I wanted it dealing with immediately, it's still classed as assault even though they are small kids.
The class the boy got moved to had more supervision.
His mum wasn't happy , but my concern was my son.
You need to push this with the school your child is your priority.

We were in a similar situation. I regret not moving my child. It’s almost like school wrote off the violent child as couldn’t do anything about him and the complaining children / parents were the issue.

I would also like to add, that maybe some of these children ( BIll) would benefit from a different type of school, they have issues and need support too, main steam where funding is low is not really the ideal place for them to get the support they need to be able to be around mainstream children , they can always be Integrated back, but possibly need support whilst they are young.

The school won’t have resources to constantly monitor him, plus it would be difficult to justify this.
I was once in your situation, tried talking to the parents, to the school, advised my child to avoid Billy or hit him back. Each tactic worked temporarily then Billy would start again.
Encourage your DS to surround himself with new friends, build up a shield of protective supportive likeminded individuals.

Every school , if not every class, will have its own 'Bill'.Many of them will be attacking the adults in school too.I would strongly advise you to teach your kiddo to fight back - no point trying to get s hool to help.They just haven't the staff if he doesn't have 1 to 1 support.

Im not sure why people are talking about 1-1 in any case, 1-1 doesnt actually mean what it sounds like it should mean, we have many children in schools with 1-1, but it doesnt mean they have a 1-1, they simply cant afford that and cant get the staff in anyway

Whats forest school?

We had a Bill in a previous school. It was handled awfully by the school, it resulted in me pulling both my children out of that school and starting them somewhere else. I would suggest perusing the schools policies, especially anti bullying and safe guarding policies, I quoted these constantly and it turns out the teacher hadn't been following ANY of the procedures.
At that point I knew it was a losing battle, I pulled my kids, registered a complaint against that teacher.
The Bill was strangling, kicking, punching, saying terrible things, all towards my child. I have heard that once we left he moved on to another child in the class and not much was done.
In my case it was 100% a failure on the schools behalf.
It took my child over a year to gain back some confidence, and also a long time for them to differentiate the difference between "playful" hurts and bullying, as in his mind they were the same thing. So a lot of unravelling for us and his new school to do. My child and Bill were both year 1 at the time, so very small children who should have been protected.

https://forestschoolassociation.org/what-is-forest-school/

Wr have a 'Bill' who has an EHCP (which is legally binding) stipulating he must not be punished in any way.His stupid parent has told him this snd he brags about it and completely takes the piss.I am sure the parents think the school is being completely ineffective with him and it is annoying because we obviously can't tell them why he is allowed go get away with everything.

When I started teaching in the 70s headteachers could refuse to have violent children in school. Instant exclusion. It's time that was brought back and this would force the LEA to provide another more adequate school or pay for a one to one.

No child should go to school afraid of another.

Thank you x

As others have said this is the great problem with inclusivity.

Some disorders do not respond to consequences and sanctions, they need low demand parenting, so children with these types of disorders wouldnt have sanctions or punishments or consequences applied, they're not 'told off'

Thats fine, but it needs to be within a context that means its safe for others to be around them, so not living in a household where they beat up their siblings etc, not being in a school where they are beating up their school mates.

Schools cant manage that, but are expected to.

But everyone wanted for children with SEN to be included in mainstream provisions so now everyone has what they wanted.

Is there a point at which a school says we can not take said child?

Who is "everyone"? Because I don't know many people who want violent and uncontrollable children in mainstream.

I completely understand how frustrating this must be for teachers to have to follow, and not being able to tell others why. I genuinely feel like too much is expected of teachers and all school staff, I pulled out of training to become a TA after realising how much abuse and absolute nonsense has to be put up with.
I was actually friends with Bill's mum, which made the situation more complicated, in this case there was no ehcp, in fact I believe the school were handling Bill's situation badly aswell. Parents were struggling, ss involvement, pushing for an ASD assessment and the school pushed back against this stating that they saw no traits.
My other dc has an ASD diagnosis and they were also difficult with that, wouldn't allow ear defense, would force them into situations that would result in melt downs, like singing in a Xmas assembly, my dc had a melt down and panic attack in front of every parent and teacher, nobody removed him until me and his dad had enough and took him off stage ourselves.
I firmly believe that children with SEN can do well in a mainstream school, but there are cases where more violent children, whether SEN or not should not be able to attend. I know there aren't enough spaces in special schools, I know there is a lack of teachers in general and I have no solution to offer. But it's unfair that one student can ruin the learning experience of 30 others. It's also unfair on teachers who are expected to pick up the slack.
It's a shameful situation and at this point the system feels broken for parents and teaching staff alike.
I will say the school my dc currently attend is incredible, it shows how a school should be, teachers are respected by parents, parents are informed of even small incidents and you can always set up meetings to talk these through. The pupils are happy, there is a SLC on site, a very good SENCO, a very involved head, it's genuinely amazing.

I think that yes many parents with children with sen do what them to attend mainstream and want them to fit in with the others, but it's not always best for that child, or the other children.
There does need to be more funding into this schools which have more staff and facilities for children with sen needs.
But sometimes it's down to the parents insisting they go to mainstream, which isn't always the best choice, I have a friend like this her child was offered a place at a Forrest school, she decided mainstream and he's struggling badly , it's stressful for her and her child.

I have never been an advocator for high level SEN children in mainstream school, but there was a huge drive for that, driven mostly by parents who didnt want their children to be excluded from mainstream provision, who felt that society and schools should have strategies and methods to ensure their child wasnt shunted off and seen as different.
The govenments of the day were keen for this too, means they didnt have to invest in SEN provision, which is now dire, few and far between.

You'll read it on threads on here many a time.

Many children with a number of different disorders come with dysegulation to the degree that they lash out, are violent, are uncontrollable. The two often come hand in hand, not always, but often

Schools and other parents are expected to manage this and it doesnt work in my view.

Also to add that we now have far more children that have been diagnosed with sen. That would have been say 20 years ago.

Why are the school not applying for sn EHCP for him?