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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think there needs to be a public inquiry into child development

592 replies

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 19/05/2024 11:53

It really seems like we have a looming societal crisis in terms of child development and therefore the quality of the public in 10-20 years time. Experienced teachers across the board seem to be reporting an overwhelming increase in delayed, aggressive and disruptive children. I’m extremely worried about how this will impact society when they become adults - it seems (as a guess) at least a tenth of children will be incapable of work of any kind, and many more will need copious amounts of support to live any kind of responsible life.

AIBU to think we need an urgent public inquiry into this and what is going on? It seems to be the elephant in the room and anybody who tries to discuss it is shouted down.

I’m sure some of it is due to cuts in services but surely that can’t account for it all - it’s very sudden and extremely alarming.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Polishedshoesalways · 21/05/2024 08:34

Dwappy · 21/05/2024 08:09

I agree with this. Obviously it isn't great for children to have to do so much at such a young age. But the fact that they CAN shows that they are more capable than people often give them credit for.
I watched a documentary once on a tribe somewhere. They followed 3 children who were off looking for snacks for themselves. The children were aged around 7, 5 and 3. Together they set traps, caught some tarantulas and made a fire. All while explaining to the cameras how to burn off the hairs on the tarantulas so they could eat them safely. Even the youngest was doing this perfectly.
I've also seen on similar things children aged 3-5 using machetes to help kill and skin animals for food.
Their children are no different to our children. Other than in how they are taught.

We have different expectations of infant and child mortality in this country.

There aren’t many parents that will be content to leave their young children with tarantulas and setting traps that could mean losing limbs. I might be wrong but…..

helpfulperson · 21/05/2024 09:42

Polishedshoesalways · 21/05/2024 07:26

It’s bloody ridiculous. The traffic is just as heavy as the U.K. and yet you would let a FIVE year old walk to school! It’s not perfect but British families on the whole take very good care of their children and are engaged and careful. With good reason. A child dying in a RTA is one of the main causes of death in children! Worldwide.

Edited

UK pedestrian death rate per million is 54. Germany is 31. Don't have time to find child comparison but it suggests German children aren't at more risk than UK.

BertieBotts · 21/05/2024 09:45

Polishedshoesalways · 21/05/2024 04:22

I just can not believe you would allow a five year old to walk home from school alone, do they not have cars there? This to me is beyond neglect and downright dangerous. It may have been fine 30 years ago with much less traffic but now? No way. Shocking! You can hardly hear electric cars these days.

Of course there are cars Grin though cycling is also common and the public transport network is very good so people do use that. But certainly a lot of people drive; Germans love their cars. Electric cars are becoming quite common too but most of them here seem to have the noise that activates below a certain speed.

And I haven't signed it so no, I don't allow him to walk home alone.

To be fair, this is not offered at every Kindergarten. The one he goes to right now is a two minute (adult pace) or about 6 minute toddler pace walk from our front door. There is one road to cross which has a marked crossing (not a zebra but everyone treats it like one) and very little traffic, because the entire small area that we live in is essentially a Q-shaped cul-de-sac with one road in or out, so nobody drives around the Q unless they live here. For many of the houses, they are on the inside of the Q, so you can get to them simply by walking through a park and not crossing any roads at all. I imagine the parents who do sign for their 5yo to leave alone live in one of these houses. They also let them out at about 1 in the afternoon, so no rush hour traffic and good lighting at all times of year. And, as someone else pointed out, when they do walk home at 6yo (which is more usual) they are generally in groups with other children, some of whom will be in the older classes aged 8-10.

In Germany it is a rule that you have to send your child to the most local school unless there is a very good reason to send them somewhere else, so there are very few parents bringing children by car because you don't need to; schools are not mobbed by cars, parents generally walk or bike with children in the first class until Christmas and then traditionally they walk in small groups. In January and February there are signs up reminding drivers to be aware of children and the (ridiculously expensive) school bags you are encouraged to buy all have reflective patches on, governed by some kind of standard. Brightly coloured, reflective coats are also encouraged and children are given free reflective bands, jackets, stickers, dangly things to attach to their bags/coats/bikes etc commonly in the first few weeks of school. There is no rule of black coats only like in the UK.

I don't think Germany has a much worse road safety record than the UK (I know it is slightly worse overall, but very similar especially in comparison to countries like Italy, Greece, Romania) but it is hard to find detailed statistics to compare since the UK left the EU because they tend to be left out of comparisons.

TBH most accidents I hear about seem to involve children aged 12+.

Polishedshoesalways · 21/05/2024 09:49

helpfulperson · 21/05/2024 09:42

UK pedestrian death rate per million is 54. Germany is 31. Don't have time to find child comparison but it suggests German children aren't at more risk than UK.

All children are at risk from being hit by a car if they are walking to school alone at five years old. From serious injury as well as death.

RhubarbCurd · 21/05/2024 10:02

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 20/05/2024 18:56

If it’s FASD though why the rise? I think the alcohol message now is stronger than the 70s and 80s.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fetal-alcohol-spectrum-disorder-health-needs-assessment/fetal-alcohol-spectrum-disorder-health-needs-assessment

most recently from 2019.
This data shows that:

  • 22% of women in England did not drink alcohol in the last 12 months
  • 59% of women in England drank at levels within the UK CMOs’ low risk drinking guidelines (that is 14 units or less in the last week)
  • 9% drank at an increasing risk level (14 to 35 units)
  • 2% drank at a higher risk level (over 35 units)
The figures for women drinking more than 14 units per week varied across age groups, with age 55 to 64 the most common (20%).[footnote 1] The best data available for the proportion of women who consume alcohol during pregnancy comes from the Infant Feeding Survey 2010,[footnote 2] though this has since been discontinued and guidance for pregnant women has changed.

Nevertheless, 2010 data showed that: 2 in 5 mothers (40%) drank alcohol during pregnancy, which was fewer than in 2005 (54%).

Mothers aged 35 or over (52%), mothers from managerial and professional occupations (51%) and mothers from a White ethnic background (46%) were more likely to drink during pregnancy. Mothers in England (41%) and Wales (39%) were more likely to drink during pregnancy than mothers in Scotland and Northern Ireland (35% in each).

A study in 2017 estimated alcohol consumption during pregnancy in different countries around the world, placing the UK 4th highest (41% drinking during pregnancy).[footnote 3], [footnote 4] The study does recognise significant limitations however, such as relying on people’s memory to record alcohol use, and inconsistent data on drinking patterns. A UK cohort study suggested a higher proportion (79% drinking in the first trimester, declining thereafter).[footnote 5]

Those figures are way higher than I was expecting - as I didn't drink at all in any pg - though we were trying for pg - so did vitamins healthy eating weight etc and do know unplanned pg drinking does occur more but overall there is a decline while some groups like middle class over 35 are still really high.

I have come across other suggestions like ND/SEN being linked to subset of population not as good biologically at purging body of some modern chemicals but that's also controversial and still being researched.

In my family it's genetic it's just modern world making it harder for each generation to cope with.

https://sp.ukdataservice.ac.uk/doc/7281/mrdoc/pdf/7281_ifs-uk-2010_report.pdf

helpfulperson · 21/05/2024 10:14

Polishedshoesalways · 21/05/2024 09:49

All children are at risk from being hit by a car if they are walking to school alone at five years old. From serious injury as well as death.

All pedestrians are at risk of being killed by a car. My point is that the risk in Germany is much lower despite 5 year olds walking to school. Perhaps because they have greater road sense being taught and allowed that responsibility earlier. Or do you think that lots of 5 year olds but way less adults are getting killed/injured. In which case we shouldn't let adults cross the road alone.

Samlewis96 · 21/05/2024 10:20

Polishedshoesalways · 21/05/2024 06:49

Not at five years old. It’s just ridiculous.

But many of us did it. I certainly did then public transport to school by the age of 7

RhubarbCurd · 21/05/2024 10:23

It may be road design playing a role - I see a lot online comparing dutch road design which often tries to separated pedestrians, bikes and cars and USA where everyone drives because cars are all that are considered really.

I personally wouldn't be happy with an unaccompanied 5 year old - but then I'm influenced by UK culture and have seen too many kids forgetting and doing dangerous stuff and too many drivers not obeying highway code as a pedestrian.

The really bad one is stopping and waving you across into middle of road with no island and moving traffic other way - got that a lot with young kids with me- then getting upset when you decline as an adult that can be hard to deal with would hate it for a child.

DuchessNope · 21/05/2024 10:25

helpfulperson · 21/05/2024 09:42

UK pedestrian death rate per million is 54. Germany is 31. Don't have time to find child comparison but it suggests German children aren't at more risk than UK.

I don’t think that’s correct - that seems very high. Are you sure it’s not 5.4 and 3.1? Do you have a source?

Janome9300 · 21/05/2024 10:32

So not "much lower" risk in Germany at all.

Samlewis96 · 21/05/2024 10:36

Janome9300 · 21/05/2024 10:32

So not "much lower" risk in Germany at all.

But no higher either

Janome9300 · 21/05/2024 10:37

No, indeed. Sorry wasn't really weighing in on the walking to school point just the wrong statistics!

Janome9300 · 21/05/2024 10:42

31 is road fatalities not pedestrian deaths I think in your first link. I included the link to the pedestrian numbers above.

361 deaths in 67 million population that comes out at 5.3 per million not 54.

helpfulperson · 21/05/2024 10:44

Interesting. My figures are 2021. Yours look to be 2018 to 2020. But I'm not sure if it's an average or total of all three years?

Janome9300 · 21/05/2024 10:45

My German number is 2023 - see my link above.

Your figures, unless I am missing something, are off either way though. You can see your maths is wrong in the way you worked out UK and the link you used is not about pedestrian deaths but road fatalities.

BertieBotts · 21/05/2024 10:56

The really bad one is stopping and waving you across into middle of road with no island and moving traffic other way - got that a lot with young kids with me- then getting upset when you decline as an adult that can be hard to deal with would hate it for a child.

I failed a (German) driving test for doing this and was specifically stopped and the examiner said "Why did you do that??" so I don't think it happens as much in Germany. I had already failed for something else so I was a bit despondent and trying to be nice but anyway. I can see how dangerous it is in hindsight. There was no traffic the other side, but someone might have tried to overtake me.

But I suspect we are derailing - and as I said, there are not really 5 year olds walking to school all over the place, they tend to be 6-7 minimum. I just shared the anecdote that technically, a 5yo can be cleared to walk home in certain circumstances because I thought it was an interesting contrast to the UK, especially since in the UK, DS would be coming to the end of year 1 whereas he won't even start school here until September 2025. So he can't read or write yet which would be seen as behind in the UK. Whereas OTOH he is seen as (potentially) old enough to cross roads and go out to play by himself - not that he does this.

badwolf82 · 21/05/2024 11:16

RhubarbCurd · 21/05/2024 10:02

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fetal-alcohol-spectrum-disorder-health-needs-assessment/fetal-alcohol-spectrum-disorder-health-needs-assessment

most recently from 2019.
This data shows that:

  • 22% of women in England did not drink alcohol in the last 12 months
  • 59% of women in England drank at levels within the UK CMOs’ low risk drinking guidelines (that is 14 units or less in the last week)
  • 9% drank at an increasing risk level (14 to 35 units)
  • 2% drank at a higher risk level (over 35 units)
The figures for women drinking more than 14 units per week varied across age groups, with age 55 to 64 the most common (20%).[footnote 1] The best data available for the proportion of women who consume alcohol during pregnancy comes from the Infant Feeding Survey 2010,[footnote 2] though this has since been discontinued and guidance for pregnant women has changed.

Nevertheless, 2010 data showed that: 2 in 5 mothers (40%) drank alcohol during pregnancy, which was fewer than in 2005 (54%).

Mothers aged 35 or over (52%), mothers from managerial and professional occupations (51%) and mothers from a White ethnic background (46%) were more likely to drink during pregnancy. Mothers in England (41%) and Wales (39%) were more likely to drink during pregnancy than mothers in Scotland and Northern Ireland (35% in each).

A study in 2017 estimated alcohol consumption during pregnancy in different countries around the world, placing the UK 4th highest (41% drinking during pregnancy).[footnote 3], [footnote 4] The study does recognise significant limitations however, such as relying on people’s memory to record alcohol use, and inconsistent data on drinking patterns. A UK cohort study suggested a higher proportion (79% drinking in the first trimester, declining thereafter).[footnote 5]

Those figures are way higher than I was expecting - as I didn't drink at all in any pg - though we were trying for pg - so did vitamins healthy eating weight etc and do know unplanned pg drinking does occur more but overall there is a decline while some groups like middle class over 35 are still really high.

I have come across other suggestions like ND/SEN being linked to subset of population not as good biologically at purging body of some modern chemicals but that's also controversial and still being researched.

In my family it's genetic it's just modern world making it harder for each generation to cope with.

Those numbers are huge. I wonder to what extent pregnancies in the UK are unplanned compared to other OECD countries? Unplanned pregnancy + heavy drinking culture among women (and yes, drinking large glasses of wine after work every day is heavy drinking and could be classed as an addiction) = more opportunities for early alcohol exposure for the fetus.

Another highly unpopular thing to consider is whether or not the very high use of SSRIs and other psychiatric drugs during pregnancy may have a role to play. There are, as is always the case with pregnancy, no good studies on this and yet women are told they are safe.

BertieBotts · 21/05/2024 12:02

I agree a full investigation would be too long and sluggish and a task force may be better. I can’t see it happening - but I can see posts on here in 15-20 years wondering why on earth we kicked the can down the road and deploring the extreme crisis in social care.

I kind of think this now for elderly care TBH. It's been obvious that it would happen for decades but there hasn't been anything put in place to mitigate it, and now there is so much elderly bed blocking in hospitals that ambulance services can't drop off their patients and response times for emergencies are alarmingly dire as a knock on effect.

In terms of child development, it seems really clear to me that early intervention (and I'd class e.g. sure start as a form of EI, though I don't think sure start is magic, I did think it was great) is the model with the cheapest implementation and best long term outcomes, but nobody seems to want to implement it because by design, if you're intervening early enough then you're catching a lot of kids that don't look like they need much support, and definitely some kids who would have done just fine without any support, so it is a bit inefficient in that sense. I remember sure start was constantly under fire because "middle class mums" used it and I kept saying on here that was one of its strengths because it was surprisingly equalising - but it doesn't look that way to politicians who are either looking very short term, or they are looking at a single issue at a time rather than the whole picture. No we can't possibly give out free baby music classes to middle class mums, they need to pay for it.

But I do think that the costs - to the kids themselves and also to their peers, their classmates, their siblings, their parents, ultimately their communities/the services that end up supporting them later on, not just but also the financial costs, are much much more if you just let things go until they are drowning and only then look at offering support and are surprised (or even refuse the support!) when it is more complicated to administer because now in addition to delays which have been compounded by not receiving support in time, this child now perhaps also has trauma and/or they have developed unhealthy coping mechanisms (e.g. they automatically resist authority) and/or they have a totally crap view of themselves (e.g. I'm stupid) and/or other things you'd want them to engage with (e.g. I hate school, I can't do maths), and/or the parents have fallen into unhelpful habits like perhaps too much screen time, because they don't know what else to do and it is the only way to stop the child terrorising their siblings, or whatever.

If you speak to any SEN parents in the UK, they are waiting years for services and diagnosis. There are barely any therapies. A friend's child is three, not speaking and still on a waiting list for speech therapy which seems absolutely bonkers to me. These are such critical periods of development, it ought to be extremely urgent to get that therapy. You wouldn't leave someone walking around on a broken leg for six weeks because there is a waiting list. There seems to be no point to a diagnosis at all, if you even get one, because parents frequently don't get offered anything other than maybe a leaflet, which is a joke, often containing outdated and minimal information, you can find more comprehensive information (and a huge amount of predatory misinformation, BTW) in a five second google or even a scroll on tiktok. People are encouraged (rightly) not to self-diagnose, but then you end up having to look up information - usually online, because this is what's accessible - while on a waiting list, so essentially self-diagnosing, because you still have to support your child in the meantime and the standard parenting things are not working (or making things worse). Or a private diagnosis is looked down upon because it's "buying a diagnosis" but it is often the only way to get a solid answer without waiting years. And not one that everyone has access to, of course.

I really don't see why people are looking to blame parents when the services that are supposed to support them are so shit. When my eldest DS was little (2009-10) there was a 9 month check and a 2 year check by the health visitor plus there were regular weighing clinics you could go to have any questions answered. The one (3 month) premature baby in our NCT group had extra check ups. I remember his mum being concerned as he did not walk/talk until 18 months, but then he did - IIRC he would have been offered physio and speech therapy if he had not.

When I had DS2 (2018) I was in Germany but on my MN birth month thread, I was surprised to hear most areas have gone down to one check up at around 1 year old and some don't even have that. In comparison we seemed to have loads of doctor check ups in Germany at 2 weeks/8 weeks/4 months/8 months/12 months, then every year until age 5.

I know that issues were picked up with DS2 through these checks which totally flew under the radar with DS1 at the same age, because we were in the UK and the only qualified person with an eye on his development was nursery.

Investinmyself · 21/05/2024 12:49

@BertieBotts I’ve enjoyed reading about the differences.
The concept of building up slowly and learning from experiences seems to have been lost. It’s shifted to only doing when old enough. As though you automatically can do things once you reach the magic age.

RhubarbCurd · 21/05/2024 13:01

@BertieBotts I was nodding along to all of that.

I was frequently told in my kids childhood they had problems but weren't bad enough to access support or get near screening or diagnosis.

We tend to see our role as parents as supporting DC and when you know there are issue try and mitigate or solve them. So we did research found time and money to help them.

At certain points enough people and us raised the persistent issues to get near screening - twice now been told our support has left them borderline - one case that was it - other they spoke to us and realised strategies were obscuring their rating system and are progressing with diagnosis.

So essentially offering all that support meant it's delayed out kids diagnosis and access to professional help - at same time also made to feel guilty couldn't afford to go private and avoid delays.

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 21/05/2024 13:42

badwolf82 · 21/05/2024 11:16

Those numbers are huge. I wonder to what extent pregnancies in the UK are unplanned compared to other OECD countries? Unplanned pregnancy + heavy drinking culture among women (and yes, drinking large glasses of wine after work every day is heavy drinking and could be classed as an addiction) = more opportunities for early alcohol exposure for the fetus.

Another highly unpopular thing to consider is whether or not the very high use of SSRIs and other psychiatric drugs during pregnancy may have a role to play. There are, as is always the case with pregnancy, no good studies on this and yet women are told they are safe.

I think the U.K. has more ‘careless’ pregnancies to be honest. Because we have a relatively generous welfare state which will ensure no child is left homeless, women don’t fear pregnancy in the way they used to, and there’s a lot of ‘whoopsy I’m pregnant, ah well it happens’. There’s much less stigma as well.

OP posts:
RhubarbCurd · 21/05/2024 13:56

https://wellcome.org/press-release/one-six-pregnancies-among-women-britain-are-unplanned

One in six (16.2%) pregnancies experienced in the past year score as unplanned, 29% as ambivalent, and just over half (55%) as planned.
...

The majority of unplanned pregnancies, though, occur in women aged 20-34 years, because more pregnancies occur in this age group.

Some of those will be actual contraceptive failures they do happen even with coils - knew quite a few already mothers who had failures with coils in my area it was investigated but turned out to be a statical fluke ie no pattern with make or fitters.

One in six pregnancies among women in Britain are unplanned

One in six pregnancies among women in Britain are unplanned, and one in 60 women (1.5%) experience an unplanned pregnancy in a year, according to new results from the third National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles (Natsal), published in The L...

https://wellcome.org/press-release/one-six-pregnancies-among-women-britain-are-unplanned

NotReallyOnFire · 21/05/2024 15:45

Hi,

I wondered if anybody might know what the rates of EBSA are at the moment post-covid and Brexit compared with the rates pre-covid and brexit?

I only wonder because my DC was a steady 99% attendance for years pre-covid and is now homeschooling because of panic attacks.

The school seems terribly short staffed, and I've rung round loads of other schools for the EHCP process and they are all neck-deep in SEND kids too.

I would be interested to know if this is a national problem and whether anybody know the figures.

It seems really relevant to this thread, because my DS is now classed as out of school because of disability whereas he was a thriving mainstream child before.