Would you fly on a 737 MAX plane?

[yellowblue20]

Booking a flight where the cheapest flight is on a 737 MAX, if I want to fly on another plane It is minimum £120 more.

Given its history, would you feel comfortable flying on a 737 MAX?

I am very anxious

Be wary with broad brush analysis.

The 737 has been around a heck of a lot longer than the A320 family, it goes way back to the 60s so over it’s life as a family it has been exposed to a much less forgiving aviation environment than, say the A320…frankly over 60 ish years you’d expect the generic 737 family to have suffered quite a few hull losses.

That’s not been helped by the fact that over the years the early 737s migrated to multiple operators with differing standards (engineering and operating) all over the world…the A320 so far at least not so much though.

That's for all 737s, which have been in existence since the late 1960s. That figure of 5,779 fatalities is across almost 60 years. Come on.

The 737 Max 8 is a newer model and has not had any crashes since the two in 2018 that caused the grounding.

Do you think Airbus have never had fatal crashes?

If you treated travelling in a car in this way you'd never be able to go anywhere.

I flew the 747 and the 777 and I’m struggling with “ 30 777 crashes.”

Haven’t got time to run off and check, certainly not for the 747 (but from top of head a few freighters have been lost.)

Thinking in terms of complete hull losses and/or fatalities for the 777

• Korean at SFO, the two MH aircraft (at least one down to hostile act), and BA at Heathrow…

What are the one’s I’m missing?

The most interesting thing from this thread is risk perception and how that influences choices and how perception is formed. We have posters doubling down with their limited knowledge against pilot's with 25 years experience, we have comments informed by Google in one of the most complex areas of safety management and one of the most regulated activities on the planet and we seem to accept that a multi national company just kills whistleblowers, without any proof. Unless you are an expert you can not understand aviation safety. Everything is what you selectively hear or are told. So we have no choice but to trust our regulators. We can make choices, but they are not really rational, just instinctive.

It would be with some irrational passenger waving a piece of paper around and demanding to get off.
It of course just wouldn't happen.

You can find out pretty easily on the day by looking at Flight Radar, where you will see the exact aircraft operating your flight.

Most of the time simply looking out the window at the gate will suffice, as the model is usually visible on the aircraft. The registration number certainly will be (and is very easy to see) and you can look up the model from that.

If you're that concerned you can also ask the crew when boarding.

An aircraft engineer would know all this. Unless the person in this story is an engineer in a completely different field, in which case he has no right to claim any sort of expertise.

Once again, Wikipedia gives the layperson knowledge us mere pilots just cannot hope to compete with. 🙄 As pilots, we scrutinise every single major incident on our aircraft type (and often other types too.) We have regular formal education in ‘this is what went wrong here, this is how to avoid it.’ We are pretty familiar with the accidents that occur, and usually become very familiar with the circumstances surrounding hull losses especially on our own type. From the wiki-list quoted above, there are all manner of reasons for accidents, crashes and hull losses, including such things as hijacks, being shot down by Russian military and terrorists, weather related events such as windshear, aquaplaning off the runway in heavy rain or snow, bird strikes, poor maintenance by the airline, pilot error, and numerous other situations where the actual model of the aircraft is irrelevant. The reason the B737 seems to have such a large number of incidents is because it is by far the most common narrow body passenger jet of all time. There are more of them - so these things happen more. The 737 MAX has experienced 2 of those hundreds of hull losses, both of them over 5 years ago, and none since. Yes, the management at Boeing is dodgy as hell, and is certainly guilty of immoral practices, but to write off travelling on an entire aircraft type is certainly an overreaction.

I don't know how you have the patience @backinthebox

Appreciate you and @notimagain posting in here. Hopefully OP and anyone else who is worried will listen to the experts rather than the uninformed reactionaries and the conspiracy theorists.

If they don't, ultimately they're the ones missing out on some wonderful travel experiences.

oh great, flying with Jet 2 in august and scared of flying. Just googled and they use mostly Boeing 😩

OK. So instead of Googling, go back through this thread and read what the pilots have to say.

Aaaaaaargh! What car are you driving to the airport in? I hear from my mate in the pub that Fords are the most likely car to crash, so make sure it’s not one of those. It was in the Sun too so it must be true. Seriously though, what aircraft would you rather fly in, and what is the basis that decision? I can find you a crash or other catastrophic situation on any type, if that helps!

I second this. It's a really informative thread.

Regarding the death of the whistle-blower John Barnett. At the time of his death he wasn't actually bringing any new claims of negligence against Boeing, I believe. Rather, the litigation had been altered to argue against his treatment as a whistle-blower.

All his claims he had talked about through various mediums in previous years. They had been investigated (how thoroughly or truthfully is another matter) and at least 1 was upheld.

So at this point I don't really see what Boeing had to gain by killing him. Even if he'd won, I don't believe the payout would be a big deal for Boeing. If anything, his death attracts yet more attention.

Added to this, his family state he was suffering from PTSD and anxiety attacks as a result of his treatment by Boeing and they believe this led to his death.

Yes, there was the self-identified 'friend' who claims Barnett stated that if he died it wouldn't be suicide but who knows if this friend was genuine or if he did make this statement, when it was made.

I'm not completely adverse to the idea of massive corporations carrying out terrible acts to further their interests but in this case I don't really see what Boeing would have to gain by killing a man (in a public space in the daytime?) who'd already very publicly whistle-blown about their manufacturing processes.

So the pilots and those on board the 737 MAX aircraft that crashed in 2018 and 2019 because of software they were unaware of - were just... guinea pigs? A learning opportunity? Collateral damage?

Where has anyone said that?

It was appalling and should never have happened.

It doesn't change the fact that now, in 2024, the aircraft safely operates thousands of flights per day. The causes have been thoroughly examined and addressed.

You are more likely to be hit by lightning than to be involved in a plane crash.

I'm scared of flying too and also flying with Jet2 soon. I actually looked up the flight on flight radar a couple of weeks ago to see if it would be a 737 and it was, I can't lie my heart sunk. I'm trying to be rational though I know it's safe but I wish I could just get over my fear and enjoy it. The posts on here from @backinthebox are reassuring. I second the other poster who requested an AMA I would love to read more stuff like this from a pilot's perspective.

@Username12284949 @rathertimely Jet2 doesn't use Max's so you are fine. Boring 737s are absolutely safe and have been flying for decades, it's only the Max I would worry about

www.alternativeairlines.com/airlines-not-flying-boeing-737-max

I'm asking that of all the pilots who seem to breeze over those occurrences. I wondered how they viewed those deaths. They must know the horror the pilots experienced.

Thank you! Tbh the type of plane doesn't make that much difference to me as in my head I am instantly stepping into danger by getting on one anyway 😂

We don’t “breeze over” them…I think there’s often a bit of reflection but simply doing that doesn’t improve anything or add to flight safety.

As @backinthebox said upthread we tend, either in formal sessions or in our own time, to consider the accident reports (especially if it involves a type we fly) and try and learn lessons so there’s less chance of it happening to a flight we are on some time in the future.

I have. Twice in the last week.

The incidents have been breezed over, to my mind, on this thread.

Aren't you outraged at what happened to those people, and that a plane was put out with unknown/unknowable software repercussions, and so on? That Boeing had some knowledge of all of this? That it could have been your plane you were flying?

I mean, this would give me pause.

Office of Public Affairs | Boeing Charged with 737 Max Fraud Conspiracy and Agrees to Pay over $2.5 Billion | United States Department of Justice

There are two separate issues here.

The issues at Boeing that lead to the 2018/2019 crashes and the subsequent grounding are unacceptable and Boeing should be held accountable.

What the OP asked is whether it's safe to fly on a Max 8 now, and the answer is yes.

Honestly it's the most scrutinised aircraft in the world at this point, and it would not have been cleared to fly again if the fixes were not sufficient. Not to mention that European safety regulations are extremely strict. It's not a case of Boeing just handing over the aircraft to Ryanair or TUI and everyone goes "that's fine, we trust Boeing."

0Oo There have been specific issues with the Max versions of the 737. This does not apply to all 737s. With the Max there have been design problems and a suggestion that Boeing has not been sufficiently rigorous about dealing with them.

Outraged, no.

These days realistically there is no way you can know every single sub-system/widget, cog and wire on an airliner…you get taught what you need to know in your working day..

I do know there would not have been MCAS hidden on the aircraft I was flying at the time because the one I flew was Fly By Wire ( FBW), no need for it.

Personally I can actually sort of understand why Boeing went the way they did with the Max initially and the thinking behind MCAS system - to understand this it’s really important to remember with all this talk of software problems is that MCAS actually was introduced as a result of a decision to avoid computerizing the 737 flight control system - Boeing didn’t want to FBW the 737.

As I understand it the thinking then was in normal use the system would be invisible to the crew (so why teach it?). If it had gone wrong Boeing thought the problem would manifest itself in the same way as a Stabilisor Trim Runaway, for which there was already a crew procedure…so why teach it again?

On the engineering side the problem was the execution was ***. Crappy system logic and only being two AOA sensors was asking for trouble, to my mind that was the big issue, not Boeing hiding something.

How it actually manifested itself in the way it did on the accident flights, and how it was handled is covered in the accident reports, if you really want more detail.

What has happened since is the system logic is changed, sensors changed and the system is I believe taught on the training for the varient …so I agree with those above who say it looks like the early MAX issue with MCAS have been resolved.

The more recent grumbles over some build quality and management ethos…yes, I agree with those.