Is this destructive or normal behaviour?

[TheGoodPlace24]

My 9 year old daughter I feel is very destructive. I’m very upset right now and obviously can’t discuss or impose any sanctions as she’s asleep in bed. I put kids to sleep and thought I’d crack on with the ironing and found the brand new starch spray bottle was completely empty! I know she’s done it as when I was with youngest downstairs I heard a spray sound and assumed she sprayed the air freshener in toilet, didn’t hear the whole bottle sprayed as she must have gone in a different room to do. In the hallway upstairs I can feel the carpet is wet.

Just this afternoon when I was cleaning the kitchen I found sugar sprinkled in the cupboard. I questioned her when she got back from school and she denied it. I didn’t pursue this anymore as we were running late for swimming and I forgot when we got home. I have now hidden sugar away as I have noticed sugar sprinkles on the counter too lots of times and only recently connected it to her. I just feel so upset that she felt the need to sprinkle it in the cupboard. We had lots of ants recently and now I know the reason!

the above is just 2 things from today.

other things in the past which I posted about under a different username were throwing a whole bottle of baby oil on all the walls in the house (to this day the baby oil has not come out and looks awful but I’ve kind of gotten used to it so doesn’t bother me do much). Also filling my work shoes with water then denying it completely.

I feel so lost. Could I please have sone support and guidance from mums who have been through this themselves or just want to give me some insight on why she is like this.

.

When you ask her if it in an accusatory way or a curious way? Spraying a whole bottle of starch is quite odd and the sugar could have a range of explanations so I’d want to know more about why. If she’s doing it to watch the world burn its destructive but if she’s getting mad impulsive thoughts she can’t resist it’s maybe indicative of more going on.

Also have you tried putting on a thick layer of cornstarch on the baby oil, leaving it in for a few days then gently dusting it off? My partner got oil on our freshly plastered and painted wall and the only reason he’s lived to tell the tale is cornstarch 😂

@rrrrrreatt thank you for your reply. The sugar incident I was curious and asked her how she thinks it got there. Do you have advice on how I deal with the starch incident in the morning? Thank you for cornstarch tip but it’s been months! Will it still work you think?

The first two sound fairly normal. The last two you mentioned do sound quite naughty. Did you tell her off? I'm guessing you did. Maybe you could issue some sort of consequence?
I found the book Divas and Dictators quite helpful. Also Little Angels by Dr Tanya Byron. Although that might have been aimed at younger children, I can't remember. 💐

@ChestnutGrove thank you I’ll take a look at that book. I’m going to take her iPad off her for whole weekend for the sugar and starch incident. I’ve decided each time how I will do this

What I liked about the books was the discipline was done in quite a positive way. Charlie Taylor who wrote Divas and Dictators has run schools for kids excluded from other schools and his positive methods work on those children so he knows what he's doing. (I'm not saying your dc is that bad, just that he is experienced

That isn't normal behaviour at all, not for a child of 9 anyway.

Mine are late teens now, but I'm not an expert on consequences as I just used to tell mine off. I hope someone can advise.

I’d maybe say to her you’re not angry but wondered if she knows and suggest reasons like “I quite like the noise/smell/etc, I wonder if that’s why someone was spraying it even though they weren’t doing ironing” to see if she opens up a little.

I did all sorts of idiotic stuff as a kid and my mum used to lose her rag a lot about it (understandably at times). I couldn’t always explain why because I didn’t have the words or understanding to say I had poor impulse control. Now I’m an adult, with a diagnosis of ADHD, I can recognise why I touched things that were hot just to see or ate a whole bag of marshmallows and was nearly sick! I’m not saying she has ADHD at all, more that kids sometimes need us to help them find the words to explain and communicate.

I’d definitely still try the cornstarch - I did it a few weeks later and you couldn’t tell looking at the wall now!

I’m struggling to understand the focus on cleaning, and why your DD ‘creates mess’. It sounds like you spend a lot of your time doing housework. I don’t know anyone who owns starch spray, for example (perhaps you run an ironing business?). Maybe she’s trying to understand what all the potions are for (I certainly am!!).

I think a weekend of no iPad for what might have been an accidental spillage is overly punitive. A chat about why she feels the need to spill/empty things might help you understand things from her perspective.

I'm no expert but it sounds to me like very low impulse control for a 9 year old. If you haven't read it, How to Talk so kids will listen... is a book I found interesting, digestible and helpful. I think it's more aimed at parents of a slightly younger age group but it's maybe no bad thing when she is doing things that are maybe more common in a younger child.

At school they'd maybe do ABC charts. The A bit is antecedents - was happening with the child just before the incident. It might be worth jotting down some notes and seeing if you can spot a pattern - kids might not know themselves that they do these things when hungry or angry or bored.

Talk to her teacher too, see if they see anything similar. If the answer is "no" is she masking at school, or is there a trigger at home that isn't there at school or is managed somehow by the structure there? I'm not saying she has no responsibility here but the more you can understand where she's coming from, the better you can fix it.

My niece is 9 and she has me on edge. I am very wary of her as she has hurt my nephew several times.

She has stamped on his leg causing a hospital stay (other hospital stays for different things) she has stolen things out of our handbags, won't speak unless she wishes to even in school, she's had every assessment and nothing.

Maybe it’s attention-seeking, or jealousy of her sibling? Could you find some collaborative tasks/crafts you could do together, maybe? Why not buy some cornstarch and get her to help you try and get the baby oil off the wall? It could put a constructive spin on what was a destructive act.

Punctuation edit!

It doesn't sound destructive to me. It sounds impulsive and experimental, without an understanding of consequences.

Cleaning sprays shouldn't really be accessible to a child, so you could easily get a lock on the cupboard it's in. I use a BeeGo lock for our knife drawer because DD1, who has LDs, is impulsive.

The real test, I think, is to explain that taking sugar without asking isn't ok, then leave the sugar in its normal place and see what happens.

Maybe it's a sensory thing? Try and find something she can do to appropriately satisfy her sensory curiosities. But all you can do really is to explain to her about damage, hygiene, and monetary issues and maybe tell her that next time you will have to insert appropriate punishment if she continues to not listen to you about these things (And also the problem of lying).

9 isn't a toddler but my daughter is 10 and I sometimes forget she's still a kid and she has blips where she blows my mind completely, they are still quite immature in ways at this ages regarding consequences.

She thinks you care more about cleaning then about her and she's testing that theory (subconsciously). I've noticed this behavior in homes where the parent prioritizes cleanliness over spending quality time with the child. Punishment in this case will reinforce the belief and ultimately worsen the behavior. My education is in child development and work in child care.

If you do spend quality time doing things she's enjoys often, then this much impulsivity at this age could point to a different underlying problem. (For example ADHD).

Could she or another child be just grabbing handfuls of sugar to eat and spilling some in the process?

Sounds like she is trying to seek attention

She seems to be targeting things that she sees as your area, cooking and cleaning. Perhaps she wants your attention, some jealousy about younger siblings. There needs to be consequences for her behaviour but, most of all, you need to talk it through with her, without anger, and listen to what she says. Give her a chance to explain her behaviour, and keep on listening. You can also talk through the consequence. You had to spend time clearing up, so she should spend time helping you with the cleaning this week. Taking away her iPad is not relevant to her misdeeds, and will make her angry and resentful. Cleaning up is relevant, and may help you renew your relationship.

Cupboard door locks? If she wants to behave like a toddler treat her like one.

Is she bored. Perhaps give her more ideas for play. Not all kids have lots of imagination to think of things to do. X

This sounds like something ds10 would do- he has adhd and asd and if he finds a sensory thing that feels good he will do it compulsively (and then feel awful later).

pulling the trigger on a spray bottle would be one of those things- enjoying the sensation and not realising what he was doing (wasting the product and getting stuff wet) until it was too late.

He would come and tell me and apologise though, and help me clear up.

I also have adhd and did a few ‘mindlessly destructive’ things as a child (emptying cup and buckets of water onto my own bed because I was imagining a flood, and repeatedly throwing a clock on the floor to see if I could break bits off it) my parents didn’t do anything special, were just cross and disappointed/shocked- I stopped by high school!

Does she have any additional needs or suspicions of additional needs. This sounds very sensory (from a send teacher’s point of view) and could mean that she is seeking some kind of sensory feedback from doing it. So instead of taking it away and punishing her you could try proving an opportunity for similar experiences. Think back to younger children who keen through sensory play. Could you get a tuft tray and put in it opportunities for things to sprinkle - such as sand, lentils depending on the texture of things she’s liking. Then again you could give her a spray bottle and allow her to spray into the tray as well - separate to dry sprinkling. You could get some little bottles of paint and big sheets of paper and she could spray paint some pictures. But making sure she only does it in the designated space. Have it somewhere (outside maybe) where you’d not be worried about the mess. Even spraying water on a dry wooden fence can produce some pictures that eventually dry up. Buckets of water and cups for tipping and transferring might be good as well or a chance to play in the bath.

I know a friend who had a child who kept ripping things up and the OT suggested a rip box so they got a box and any scrap paper/newspaper was to be ripped k to there from the rip pile. The rest of the house quickly became safe.

Definitely get her to help clean up as well.

Even baking might be a good take you can do together and you’d have the reward of something nice at the end of it. Ribbing butter and flour for making dough for instance and then poring in the wet ingredients. Creaming butter and sugar and pouring in the wet ingredients.

Even get her to help clean in the good and give her the spray to clean the windows.

Find lots of positive useful purposes for her actions to focus them in on. Create a choice board for her to then be able to choose activities from when she’s feeling the need to sprinkle/spray. It might be her way of calling and regulating herself. Maybe look at what she is doing just before she does those things and see if there’s a trigger of something upsetting her or stressing her out.

I've sometimes talked about an imaginary third person/character doing something- 'It looks like a cheeky ghost has been here and got up to some messy business, I wondered if you heard anything or might know what he's been up to?' then they've confessed to what 'the ghost' has done- usually through curiosity without thought for the consequence. When they've felt to bad to admit to it themselves, they've been able to tell me about it through the 'ghost'! We both know who the ghost really is. Then we've sorted out what the cheeky ghost has done together, and talked about them having a word with the cheeky ghost/teddy next time they see them to make sure it doesn't happen again. Years later we have a laugh about it and whether the ghost is still up to antics somewhere...

I think you sound overly concerned about a clean house. I don’t own starch spray or air freshener spray. Is she allowed to play with things that might get messy. Buy her a spray bottle with water in it and let her play in garden “watering” plants. But her a potions kit for bathroom and let her make her own experiments with them. Hooded owl is good. Sounds like she is exploring. She does sound quite old to be doing it but If she’s never had a chance? You can also explain that you dislike the mess and the wastage. And then offer some different options, slime, kinetic sand maybe she just needs to experience different sensations and explore her freshly scented and starched environment!

@TheGoodPlace24 from experience with my own daughter, I am almost sure this is sensory-seeking. Mine is 11 now and we are seeing fewer instances of this, but we've had: scattering baby powder all over the floor of the bathroom, sticking her fingers into my face cream or foundation, drawing on her own wall in pencil, drawing on the furniture (very near the floor so it took a long time for us to notice), cutting the tablecloth or the (very old) sofa cover with scissors, cutting a bit off the rubbery aerial of her brother's clock radio, writing her name with her fingernail on the leaf of a succulent plant...

Most of these were cleanable but it does make me have a sinking feeling of "Why does she feel compelled to make a mess of things?" And I think it's mostly poor impulse control. She's awaiting CAMHS assessment and I am expecting either autism or ADHD. I do sometimes wonder if she doesn't take in that anyone will mind - she was really astonished that we were cross that she'd made a mess of drawings and rubbings-out on her newly painted wall, "because it's my wall".

I used to tear all the corners off pages in my books (which she also does), spill things semi-on-purpose, tear and cut up paper, and sometimes pull hairs from my fringe out. I grew out of all of these, so I'm hoping she will too.