Single sex schools - PT2

[WalrusOfLove]

I found it an interesting discussion so thought it would be worth having a new thread as the old is now full.

Just before the thread reached its post limit I posted a large government funded study which found that girls in single-sex schools are 'significantly more likely' to suffer threats of violence and actual violence than girls at mixed schools.

Unfortunately, it was too late in the thread to receive any replies but I thought it was an interesting statistic as many posters were suggesting that the benefit of single sex schools was a safer environment away from the boisterous/aggressive nature of boys.

I didn’t witness a single incidence of violence at my girls school in the entire 7 years I was there.

I didn’t witness a single incidence of violence in my co-Ed school, and nor have my children in their co-Ed schools. Do I think that this means there isn’t a violence problem in co-Ed schools? No of course not. Just because I haven’t witnessed something doesn’t mean that others haven’t.

All other studies show that girls achieve better in girls schools, they have better mental health

This is simply untrue. “All” studies do not show this. Some studies have shown the opposite.

Interesting points.

I do remember reading an article a few years back which found that female violence had doubled in the previous decade - this would probs mean the study fell within this timeline. However, as you point out, there are too many factors to draw any concrete assumptions.

That is your opinion, but each time someone makes a false accusation against another poster that is also ruining discourse.
You must accept that others will offer different views, and insulting them isn't how you get your point across - to be fair there were people much, much worse than you. I do understand that you want the best for your daughter, I want the best for people's children too - I just see a different way of doing that.
As for lots of posts from me, yes I hold my hands up, but I am ill with a stinking head cold/bug and MN and podcasts have been my source of entertainment. After asking people not to bully, and my initial offering regarding difficulty in accurately assessing bullying levels, I do plan to sit back more today......🤐

I think mental health is a tough subject too. Studies do seem to indicate that girls in SS schools have better mental health and suffer less anxiety, but what we don't know is whether that reverses with a vengeance once they are in a mixed work environment.

I was less stressed when I was in a less senior role, but overall I'm happier now and wouldn't go back.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/may/12/girls-do-better-in-exams-at-all-girls-schools-than-mixed-research-finds

This is a recent UK based study and adjusts for compounding factors.

I think it is really important to use UK based studies as countries like Korea and Finland have very different societies.

It does suggest girls outperform by 10% in single sex schools.

https://www.tes.com/magazine/archive/girls-schools-biggest-bullies-breeding-ground
This refers to girls’ schools

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2016/apr/school-affects-girls-chances-being-diagnosed-eating-disorder
This is about girls

As I mentioned in a previous thread though, I actually think that everyone should have a choice of school, wherever they live. There should be a choice in the state sector of single sex, selective, non-selective etc. We have a situation now where vast swathes of the country have no choice, but others do. That situation is not acceptable. All children should have equal access and choice. Unfortunately, the state has finite resources which means that state provision has to be as economically efficient as possible. With decreasing demand for single sex education, it becomes less economically viable. I’ve merely pointed out the reasons why single sex is becoming less popular.

Ist study 10 years old
2nd study based on Swedish schools (and presumably the Swedish health system)

Actually I wasn't referring to the use of phones in bullying behaviour, although that has obviously risen.

I think the use of phones has allowed much greater access to the internet as a whole which has had a strong influence on the views and opinions of teens - little of which has done much for the rights of females, and the way they are treated in society. I think it has even made young girls more accepting of bad behaviour against them. Think Andrew Tait et al.

Previous posters have mentioned studies in favour of single sex schools going back 70 years. I don’t think we should discount international studies either; we live in an increasingly global world where people are more internationally mobile. Whether or not some people agree with studies which show problems with single sex education is somewhat irrelevant. Many people agree with the findings which is why demand for single sex is decreasing and why numbers of single sex schools are falling.

@Another76543 ,

The big study I saw in favour of mixed was Korean.

I do think they treat education and discipline completely differently there, so I would question its relevance.

There’s nothing to suggest demand is falling, just that schools are now under tighter financial pressure and therefore fewer parents can afford private education (which single sex schools usually are), so doubling the market by admitting the other sex makes financial sense. Equally state schools are more limited in funding so merging with another school and pooling resources will help.

I think we shouldn't ignore international studies, but we definitely should read them taking into the the actual differences of the different education systems.
Even within the UK the Scottish and English systems differ - for example my school had 'Grammar' in the title, but it was simply a historical name and not a Grammar like the majority of English Grammar schools are. People might assume my school had a typical more selective English Grammar intake when in reality it was more like a typical Comprehensive School intake. Scottish secondary schools are Grammar, Academy, High/High School, etc.

Although the study I linked is ten years old, I doubt female violence in schools had dropped as female violence on the whole has doubled in little over a decade. Male violence is (I think) dropping aside from knife crime and femicide but is still obv way higher.

Christ. I can’t do this thread! I’ll make like an airport lounge attendee and leave now.

How many female students have stabbed their fellow classmates or teachers, versus male?

Because I’m aware of a considerable handful of cases of severe violence at school in the last couple of years but all have been perpetrated by boys. I’m also aware of severe violence taking place outside of school between pupils, again all perpetrated by boys against other boys or girls.

@FaeryRing There is lots of info out there to back up that physical acts of violence are more often perpetrated by males, against females and against other males. I doubt anyone would disagree with that. This opens up the massive question of just who is to blame for this trend? Society? Parents? Education system? Government? Lack of support? Abuse? I know the perpetrators themselves choose to pick up a knife or use their firsts in the first place, but what leads them to make that choice? More questions than answers really.

And just to avoid confusion here, I am not trying to minimise the harm these males are doing, I am asking what makes them think this is ok?

There definitely are cases of female on female and female on male violence, but it is definitely seemingly more rare.

I think who is to blame is irrelevant. It’s a fact, and girls shouldn’t be put through a social experiment at the cost of their education to find out why. If boys and their parents want to go away and solve this issue we can talk again. But in the meantime let’s not make our girls pay the price of boys ‘exploring themselves’.

If the issues are to be solved, or even minimised, then it's completely relevant to consider what is causing it. You cannot actually think it's ok to write off a whole host of complex issues as 'boys exploring themselves'.

Some girls also bully other girls to the extent that they actually self harm or even commit suicide, and while that's undoubtedly a much smaller number than the male violence, we cannot say it's irrelevant to look for the causes behind that either.

But this thread isn’t about what’s best for boys, or where their behaviour comes from, or how to solve it.

It’s about what’s. best. for. girls.

Deary me

You don't see any how looking at what leads boys to be aggressive (toward girls, boys, teachers, anyone) could actually benefit girls in the long term? You think this would only benefit the boys? The first approach to changing behaviour is to study it, to look for patterns, to ascertain what leads to some boys thinking it's ok to treat others like this. Ascertaining what is causing it DOES NOT justify it, but it does help to break patterns, sometimes generational, patterns and speak up against it. It will actually help girls speak up too. I find it shocking you don't see the link tbh, but I am trying not to make personal insults, so I accept we all come from a different point of understanding.

It does but why do girls schools have to be reduced or closed to achieve that? Why, in the absence of this problem being solved, can’t they stay in single sex schools where these exact issues are not present due to the absence of males?

It sounds like you see the role of women and girls as fixing men, supporting them and solving conundrums around their behaviour. They’re not. As a boy mum if you want to get involved in figuring out what’s behind teen boy violence then go ahead. But why should the girls?

Dd is very happy and thriving in a ss school.

Hi all,
We have received a fair amount of reports regarding this thread and the last one. We'd like to request a bout of collective amnesia and for everyone to get back to discussing what is an important parenting subject.
To be absolutely fair, it does look like the thread is getting back on track, but candidly if it veers off again we're not going to have a huge amount of patience for it continuing.

I haven’t read the last thread, so sorry if it’s already been mentioned, but for a while using the “Diamond Model” seemed to be popular in some mixed independent schools. Simply put, it meant that certain subjects like maths, English and science were taught in single sex groups and others (history, languages, etc) were taught in mixed groups.

https://atomlearning.com/blog/diamond-schools