To think that people living longer is making quality of life for everyone worse?

[Futurascope]

Possibly controversial…,

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-05-14/one-in-three-councils-not-confident-they-can-provide-basic-adult-social-care

“The fears about meeting the legal requirements come despite eight out of 10 councils forecasting having to cut spending on other community services such as parks, libraries and leisure centres to try to protect funding”.

So - libraries, leisure centres, parks, all vital for young children, families and others - being closed because the elderly desperately need social care.

As awful as it is for us all individually to lose somebody that we love….. is curing every disease, and having us all live to 100 really a good thing if it is at the expense of quality of life for the rest of society?

Surely there are more and more people needing physical and/or mental health support, across all age groups?

We are constantly reading of children/young people unable to function properly, go to school/work, because there is such a demand on services.

We can’t leave them all to it.🤷‍♀️

Many older people are funding their own care, if they have savings/assets.

I actually support the Assisted Dying proposals, because I think everyone should have a choice - but it should never be about money.

I agree. But many will wring their hands at this viewpoint.

So if all of these advances in medicine are causing so many problems in society why are we bothering with the research ? Why look for a cure for cancer ? Why develop vaccines ? If we’re debating where to ‘draw the line’ do we take into account people’s ability to pay ? There’s always been one rule for the rich and one for the poor, so if we’re not even handed, could it be that eventually only the rich will survive ? Problem solved, but probably not in the way we wanted.

We should look at China and Japan, who have the most elderly population. See how they fund it and manage. I think having an elderly and healthy population, is very different to an elderly and diseased one. My father is in his 80s, he has so many things wrong with him. His quality of life is very poor. No wonder he keeps talking about stepping off this mortal plane. My neighbour's mother is 102! Her quality of life is poor, she's struggling. Being given life saving treatment and medication isn't the way forward, if they are physically unhealthy. It's just patching them up for the next time.

It's absolutely shocking - and neatly demonstrates the actual cause of the problem - that people are pontificating over how we can rob Peter to pay Paul and which vulnerable groups should not be "artificially kept alive" (which, by the way, is what we do every time we use medical treatment to save a life), instead of pondering over how we can redistribute the vast, vast wealth that exists on the planet in order to meet everyone's needs.

There is no reason why anyone should not have their care, medical or social needs met in a world with such immense wealth. Part of the problem is the unbridled greed and selfishness of the very few, globally, at the top. The other part of the problem is everyone else ignoring them and pointing the finger downwards.

Adult social care is in budget in our local authority it’s childrens services that is causing the issue as it has had huge increases in children in care

Agree. Living longer but in poor health so costing more to maintain.

I’m a community nurse and the vast majority of our patients are elderly. I’m definitely not against voluntary euthanasia especially for the terminally ill or those who have a debilitating untreatable illness as long as they have capacity and it’s their choice.
But stopping treatment for the elderly is very complicated and an ethical dilemma for the medical profession. When do we stop? Age cannot be the deciding factor because I can show you a very unfit 70 year old and a 87 year old still walking his dog for an hour every day or a 94 year old attending aquafit twice a week! The last two are on medication one on a considerable number of tablets but he is still active. Do we have a quality of live test (I believe vets do the same thing) score less than 10 out of 30 we stop treatment? WHO administers these tests? Not someone with any financial advantage (local or national government employees). What if the person doesn’t want treatment stopped? Or the family doesn’t want the treatment stopped. IME many families want their elderly relatives treated and many elderly who have capacity carry on swallowing their tablets for their various health conditions. Stopping medication doesn’t mean that person will die in the next few weeks, for example those taking treatment for Parkinson’s would yes decline faster and but could still live a considerable period just have an even poorer quality of life, ditto stopping anti hypertensives/anti coagulants could cause some to have a heart attack or stroke but they may not die but could become even more dependent.
And who decides to stop treatment you’re asking HCPs to play God that is not a role I believe we want.
I see many lonely elderly who get the minimum level of care because this is all they or the council can afford, who could have a better quality of life if the money was available, we need more day centres carers with more time, community support and infra structure to enable the elderly to live fulfilled lives. As a society we seem to value are elderly less and less, so many people spend a fortune on Botox/surgery/fillers trying to postpone the inevitable, getting old being old is so undesirable. But we forget they too we young like you with hopes and dreams the majority have paid taxes all their lives worked their nuts off and most never complained now they are unwanted and viewed as a burden on our society.
There is so much truth in the quote:
“Our society must make it right and possible for old people not to fear the young or be deserted by them, for the test of a civilization is the way that it cares for its helpless members.”
And
“The ultimate moral test of any government is the way it treats three groups of its citizens. First, those in the dawn of life — our children. Second, those in the shadows of life — our needy, our sick, our handicapped. Third, those in the twilight of life — our elderly.”
Neither were written in the 21st century so this is not a new problem and I believe Trollop wrote a book about this.

I’ve worked in the field of ageing. Both chins and Japan are struggling massively

Japan is betting on technology but research shows the much vaunted robots don’t work because the older ppl don’t really engage with them and they go wrong a lot. Basically once the initial novelty wears off they’re in cupboards and China brought in a law saying adult children had to care for parents (didn’t work) and have built huge warehouse style care homes 800-1000 beds for older pol

they have no more idea than we do

plus of course in the uk 20% of ppl over 50 have no adult children at all. Tje demand on care will only increase

My grandmother lived until she was 94. In her younger days she was of the mindset that she wouldn’t want to live well into old age. That viewpoint changed as she got older and nearer the end of her life and every day became precious because it could be her last. I find the viewpoint that the elderly should be expendable at will really offensive.

Oh dear, I always think of Logan's Run when someone raises this, where everyone is compulsorily euthanised at 30 to maintain a balanced between population and resources. It is a nightmare scenario.

I think the issue is a whole societal issue.

People are sick for longer and earlier..we keep raising the retirement age, we aren't treating people in a timely manner with NHS waitlist which generally mean conditions are worse by the time they can get treatment, which impacts every age group, social care and working population. You cant go to a GP anymore you have to wait weeks.

Every family is usually dual income now, with grandparents working later aswell, there is no familial support so that again is increased pressure on social care.

With all the benefit bashing, government scrutinising claiments i doubt anyone is going to stop working to be a carer for family members in the forseeable if they don't have to.

No group, or service is the sole problem.

👏👏👏 Well said.

Pathetic argument.

The problem is that successive governments have failed to invest in social care and the NHS and created a society based on greed and rampant capitalism so people only value is as cheap and easily fired workforce while everyone else is seen as a 'burden'.

Who else do you want to target? the disabled, the sick, single mums, immigrants...should they all be 'eliminated'?

You should apply to join the Tory policy team. You would fit right in.

Somehow there is always plenty of tax payer money to fund mad schemes like Rwanda deportations, Covid contracts for mates, MPs expenses and pay rises but not for social or health care...

The sooner we start prioritising a decent standard of living for people of all ages and stop creating a society that only benefits a few greedy leeches at the top the better we all will be.

yabu.

As awful as it is for us all individually to lose somebody that we love….. is curing every disease, and having us all live to 100 really a good thing if it is at the expense of quality of life for the rest of society?

living to 100! apart from some pampered royals, this is not the age people conk out round about where I live. It's not only the old but also the disabled who are probably a drain in your view? What do you suggest? rounding up people who need care and get the bazooka out so you can do to your library?

Social care needs proper funding. It's possible, just not with the current model and undoubtedly successive governments did nothing. It's an appalling and disgusting post. You don't have access to the library because John next door needs a carer. Educate yourself!

@VestibuleVirgin why do you think that's bitchy?
My mum has always said she would go to Switzerland if terminally ill. She now has stage 4 cancer and plans to take her own life. But can barely walk to the front door without falling. It's horrible.

More to who ?

You’re articulating yourself really badly here. It’s fine to wonder what will happen, and it’s fine to be distressed at the issue. But don’t blame those who require social care for being alive and having their illnesses treated. Blame a government who can’t keep enough people in work to support an economy and who breed a failing birth rate – from failing schools so children do not leave school with any aspirations or enough education, to women who cannot afford to work because of childcare costs, to fostering a society of misogyny to keep women out of the workplace, to treating women so poorly that they do not want to have children at all, to make state services so poor that workers leave the country to live elsewhere, to letting billionaires escape with paying minimum tax while rinsing the poor until they are better off not working at all and claiming benefits instead.

But of course, blame people for being born and remaining alive.

What countries? certainly not in Europe, which have better social care but much higher taxes than the UK has.

This idea that family members can look after very poorly people is for the birds, do we want even more people to leave the workforce and have even greater immigration to make up the shortfall??

You need to look at the cuts in central govt funding to councils as to why we have terrible public services, its got nothing to do with adult social care, which has also been slashed and will be cut even further in order to pay for the recent £30 billion in tax cuts.

We could afford better health services in the 2000s, so there is zero reason why they should be so terrible now, its down choices, spend £170 billion on HS2 or fund social care?

Oh and then waste £29billion on starting a railway but then cancel it.....

But instead of blaming the Govt, we turn on the disabled, the sick and the elderly......

My Mum had an advance directive ( as do I and my partner).

In reality it was difficult to get the medical profession to take any notice of it. Not help by covid and not being allowed into the hospital

Mum had a catastrophic stroke. She was unable to speak much, swallow, blind in one eye, or sit upright without help. This kind of thing was covered in her advance directive ( no chance of recovering to independence, unable to swallow so need artificial feeding, ) yet the doctors kept in pumping IV antibiotics into her. Even when she was trying to tell them no.

We were going round in circles. She's saying " no" but they claimed she didn't have capacity. Yet when the directive was produced they ignored it.

Eventually someone saw sense and they removed antibiotic drops and stopped the artificial feeding ( bear in mind this in now 10 days after stroke and she cannot still swallow water never mind eat)

She was able to thank them for stopping. Within 3 days after that she had passed away peacefully. She was 75.

Yet some people they keep on artificially feeding and pumping full of drugs when there is no quality of life. Mum wouldn't have wanted that simply to be alive but not living

Is that you Rishi ? Sounds like typical Tory divide and rule to me.

Yet some societies in the world and communities in the UK believe in close family ties and the responsibility lies with sons and daughters and other close family members. The UK feels it's the responsibility of the state or the taxpayer- specifically, the burden falls on the higher-rate taxpayer.
In our country, it is common for children's play to be monetized and controlled by private entities. This is especially evident in sports, particularly football. Nowadays, kids rarely play in public parks; instead, they are sent to clubs where they have to pay to play.

I believe the UK struggles with openly discussing these issues.

Well it’s ok to ask as it’s a pressing problem

What are the options?

In answer to your original question, i dont think there is a link to medical advances and worsening public services. Because i think that a lot of medical advances mean less care is needed in many cases or just the same care at a different point in time.

I think the biggest medical advance needed now is around dementia. If we can prevent it most of this debate will go away. As this is the one people fear and its the one that can go on for years with high care needs. I have seen some interesting research around dementia and diabetes which is very promising.

That's very interesting, thank you.