Page 5 | To think that people living longer is making quality of life for everyone worse?

Original poster

Futurascope · 14/05/2024 23:16

crackofdoom · 14/05/2024 23:14

I want to live in a society where every single person is looked after and has their needs met.

It's just bewildering to me that a demographic which is so much in need of high levels of care has overwhelmingly opted to vote for a political party determined to strip every last vestige of support from the vulnerable.

Completely agree

OP posts:

Olidora · 14/05/2024 23:17

VestibuleVirgin · 14/05/2024 22:45

Why keep anyone alive then?
Premature babies? We now can keep them alive even before the legal limit for termination. Their care is expensive and some can require input for a lifetime.
Those who become disabled through accident ( dangerous sport, crashes, bomb injury) or disease (diabetes, vascular disease, etc)? We now can keep people alive who previously would have died of severe injury and/or disability.
Those with genetic disease, those with allergies, cancer patients...??
All use resources on a day-to-day basis be they care, support, clinical or medical.

But so much easier to pick on the elderly, the low-hanging fruit who are less likely to argue for what they need/require.

So if you want to start discussing who is using all the resources, fact-find about how much other resource-users are taking from local libraries to keep them alive, and then perhaps we can draw straws to decide who is refused them.

This , I really hope that you are not using the elderly as a reason for your daughter potentially having a problem with buying a house !

Samthedog71717 · 14/05/2024 23:18

In many ways I agree there isn't enough funding for care for my elderly relative so here we all are providing a home and full time care for her, working full time and bringing up a child. She gas a great quality of life, we don't.

Elvisthedonkey · 14/05/2024 23:20

@crackofdoom But who is going to pay for that? The majority of people take out of the pot more than they put in. If someone retires age 67 and then lives another 30 years, do you think that it is likely that they’ve put enough in the pot over the years to pay for 30 years of pension, housing benefits, NHS care, care home fees, etc? They very likely haven’t contributed anywhere near enough.

You have to be realistic about the resources the state has.

Listengold · 14/05/2024 23:21

It's a very hard point to make.
Until my late mum was 83 she was fit and quite healthy.
Was on no medication. Went out every day what ever the weather.
Covid hit and being stopped from going out she developed dementia.
By 2022 she had gone past the right of normality.
2023 she fell broke her hip.
From then on she couldn't walk. Incontinence soon followed.
Fortunately she died before it got worse.
I prayed every night for her to die.
That's when she should have been abled to end her life.
On her medical notes the only pill she took was for dementia

Man in the room across the corridor had been in the nursing home was worse than mum. His family kept asking for the nightmare to end.
I know no one can help to end the suffering. The law needs to change.

We are keeping people alive and in pain, distress etc.
Before the advance in medication normal age process would have taken place.
People are being kept alive longer than they should.

Olidora · 14/05/2024 23:24

Futurascope · 14/05/2024 22:58

No, at no point have I suggested withdrawing care from anybody. I posed a question around whether the advancement in medicine has contributed to our decline in living standards.

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So are you suggesting that people shouldn’t have medical intervention? In that case we would all be dead by the age of 40 !! Ie childbirth,infection,anticoagulants…
Obviously this strategy will help your child buy a home 🤦‍♀️

Original poster

Futurascope · 14/05/2024 23:27

Olidora · 14/05/2024 23:24

So are you suggesting that people shouldn’t have medical intervention? In that case we would all be dead by the age of 40 !! Ie childbirth,infection,anticoagulants…
Obviously this strategy will help your child buy a home 🤦‍♀️

Show quote history

No as I have said throughout this thread, I am not suggesting anything of the sort.

I was questioning whether the advancement in medicine had contributed to the decline in standard of living. It is a theoretical question. Not a suggestion we should start killing people off. It wasn’t posed as a problem to solve - just whether people agree there is a link.

OP posts:

LightSpeeds · 14/05/2024 23:28

Futurascope · 14/05/2024 23:08

Lots of posters jumping on the idea that I suggested withdrawing care and killing people off. Or that I would support vulnerable groups not receiving the care they need. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

I am worried about the future quality of life for all sectors of society as the public sector is decimated.

My question was whether the advancements in medicine have contributed to the decline. If we continue the trajectory, I don’t know how society supports itself in generations to come.

Councils are saying they can’t provide the legal basic minimum level of care - that is not OK.

What do you think about all the people who drink, smoke and eat crap such that they take up a huge amount of the NHS's resources?

Or the increasing number of people (many of them young) with mental health problems who can't work (and maybe never will) and are living on benefits?

Elvisthedonkey · 14/05/2024 23:29

No, come on, @Olidora, that is not a logical argument. There is a world of difference in providing healthcare to someone who has every chance of getting back to independent living, and keeping people alive who are so old and infirm that they will never be able to.

GivePeaceAChance · 14/05/2024 23:29

Minniemooose · 14/05/2024 22:57

Why would money for adult social care be used for children? If a child needs an EHCP they obviously have significant needs.

Edited

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I don’t know why
I do know, however part of the ASC money allotted on our council tax bill goes towards it.

Zombella · 14/05/2024 23:30

You wrote: 'As awful as it is for us all individually to lose somebody that we love….. is curing every disease, and having us all live to 100 really a good thing if it is at the expense of quality of life for the rest of society?'

You literally questioned whether society should continue to strive towards curing diseases. And who have diseases? The sick. The disabled. So sod off with your fake 'oh Im in no way disability bashing!' bollocks. You know full well what you are.

To think that people living longer is making quality of life for everyone worse?

Original poster

Futurascope · 14/05/2024 23:30

Listengold · 14/05/2024 23:21

It's a very hard point to make.
Until my late mum was 83 she was fit and quite healthy.
Was on no medication. Went out every day what ever the weather.
Covid hit and being stopped from going out she developed dementia.
By 2022 she had gone past the right of normality.
2023 she fell broke her hip.
From then on she couldn't walk. Incontinence soon followed.
Fortunately she died before it got worse.
I prayed every night for her to die.
That's when she should have been abled to end her life.
On her medical notes the only pill she took was for dementia

Man in the room across the corridor had been in the nursing home was worse than mum. His family kept asking for the nightmare to end.
I know no one can help to end the suffering. The law needs to change.

We are keeping people alive and in pain, distress etc.
Before the advance in medication normal age process would have taken place.
People are being kept alive longer than they should.

I’m sorry for your loss and that you went through that 💔

OP posts:

floppybit · 14/05/2024 23:31

@WrenNatsworthy I'm so so sorry, that's utterly shit

crackofdoom · 14/05/2024 23:32

Elvisthedonkey · 14/05/2024 23:20

@crackofdoom But who is going to pay for that? The majority of people take out of the pot more than they put in. If someone retires age 67 and then lives another 30 years, do you think that it is likely that they’ve put enough in the pot over the years to pay for 30 years of pension, housing benefits, NHS care, care home fees, etc? They very likely haven’t contributed anywhere near enough.

You have to be realistic about the resources the state has.

In a world where a single oil company (Shell) can declare a profit of over £32 billion in 2022 while murdering the planet, I have some very good ideas about where the money could come from, believe you me. The money's there all right 😡

GivePeaceAChance · 14/05/2024 23:32

Zombella · 14/05/2024 23:30

You wrote: 'As awful as it is for us all individually to lose somebody that we love….. is curing every disease, and having us all live to 100 really a good thing if it is at the expense of quality of life for the rest of society?'

You literally questioned whether society should continue to strive towards curing diseases. And who have diseases? The sick. The disabled. So sod off with your fake 'oh Im in no way disability bashing!' bollocks. You know full well what you are.

Well said
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

YourPithyLilacSheep · 14/05/2024 23:32

I really hope that you are not using the elderly as a reason for your daughter potentially having a problem with buying a house !

No - that was the OP’s argument not the argument of @VestibuleVirgin

Elvisthedonkey · 14/05/2024 23:33

OP don’t listen to these people who are goading you. You have no reason to try to defend yourself - your point is 100% valid. However, as is always the case, people on here seem incapable of having a reasonable, measured discussion.

JustPleachy · 14/05/2024 23:35

Zombella · 14/05/2024 23:30

You wrote: 'As awful as it is for us all individually to lose somebody that we love….. is curing every disease, and having us all live to 100 really a good thing if it is at the expense of quality of life for the rest of society?'

You literally questioned whether society should continue to strive towards curing diseases. And who have diseases? The sick. The disabled. So sod off with your fake 'oh Im in no way disability bashing!' bollocks. You know full well what you are.

I fully agree.

Original poster

Futurascope · 14/05/2024 23:37

crackofdoom · 14/05/2024 23:32

In a world where a single oil company (Shell) can declare a profit of over £32 billion in 2022 while murdering the planet, I have some very good ideas about where the money could come from, believe you me. The money's there all right 😡

Show quote history

If only we knew how to solve that. For every bad thing that’s happening in the world right now, a big company is getting rich from it.

OP posts:

BoudiccaOfSuburbia · 14/05/2024 23:39

Only 15% of over 80s go into a care home (4% of over 65s) , and the median stay is under 20 months.

37% are self funding.

Our expectations of medical attention and medical advances are lifelong. From our (scandalously underfunded) maternity services that have driven down the infant mortality numbers. Expensive support of tiny premature babies. IVF. Expensive and prolonged reconstructive and plastic surgery. Cancer treatment is incredibly expensive. And so on.

Before we get started on all the other costs of modern life. To keep everything going. Higher safety specs so that our accident rates fall.

And so on.

It isn’t that there isn’t the money. It’s who accumulates it without contributing.

Nsky62 · 14/05/2024 23:46

I dread to think, how I’ll end up, 7 yrs in Parkinson’s at nearly 62, there are no ground breaking treatments ( deep brain stimulation for some), and drugs.
Nearly all nuro conditions no real treatments.
Most think Parkinson’s is an oap thing, early onset is before 60, my dad had it late 70s died 85

Againname · 14/05/2024 23:58

The ageism is shocking.

It is, I agree. I also bet lots of people will change their minds when they get older.

So people work for decades then it's sorry grandma off you pop? They've contributed loads of tax (and still pay tax because everyone pays tax working or not) but there's also more ways to contribute than financially.

Older people are not to blame for lower quality of life. The problem is not older people or any other vulnerable group.

The problem is false economy policies.

Badly funded or managed public services.

Lack of social housing (which increases benefits cost, as many jobs don't pay enough to meet private housing costs).

Declining community (related to lack of social housing as people are moving away from their communities).

Lack of work, education, and training opportunities (another reason for declining community, as lack of jobs is another reason why people have to move away from their communities).

Vicious circle, as lots of displaced people move for housing or jobs, adding pressure on housing and jobs in the areas they move to.

Doesn't help that there's not enough jobs for everyone (and many of the jobs available are low paid, although that wouldn't be so much of an issue if there was more social housing).

There's less total job vacancies in the UK than there are people out of work.

Againname · 15/05/2024 00:02

The amount of ageism I've seen recently is beginning to make me think when DH and I get to 60 or even 50, we might as well up our alcohol intake, take up smoking, forget about healthy eating and live on cake, pizza, and never exercise.

So then everyone younger (except our DC) will be happy when we have massive heart attacks and don't live 'too long'.

Also I keep seeing threads with people talking about 'the problem of an ageing population', but I'm sure I've heard life expectancy is no longer increasing?

Olidora · 15/05/2024 00:09

Futurascope · 14/05/2024 23:27

No as I have said throughout this thread, I am not suggesting anything of the sort.

I was questioning whether the advancement in medicine had contributed to the decline in standard of living. It is a theoretical question. Not a suggestion we should start killing people off. It wasn’t posed as a problem to solve - just whether people agree there is a link.

Show quote history

Well my interpretation from your post,is that if the elderly are alive,then it affects your generation 🤷‍♀️

Olidora · 15/05/2024 00:11

Againname · 15/05/2024 00:02

The amount of ageism I've seen recently is beginning to make me think when DH and I get to 60 or even 50, we might as well up our alcohol intake, take up smoking, forget about healthy eating and live on cake, pizza, and never exercise.

So then everyone younger (except our DC) will be happy when we have massive heart attacks and don't live 'too long'.

Also I keep seeing threads with people talking about 'the problem of an ageing population', but I'm sure I've heard life expectancy is no longer increasing?

Agree but am too tired now to add to my posts.