They/them pronouns in primary school workbooks

[KellyMaureen]

I've been asked to review some resources for kids about autism. It takes the form of a workbook for primary school kids. There are two characters who are twins, one with a unisex name which is usually always spelled the same, and the other with a name that can be used for boys or girls but is spelled the usual way you would spell it for a boy. Both dressed exactly the same except for different coloured T-shirts.

Both these kids have they/them pronouns in this workbook. Is this now the norm? Will there come a time when there is no he/she? This is what this feels like. I wanted to ask that question in feedback, but I'm unsure how to give my feedback without sounding inappropriate. AIBU about this?

What are your thoughts please? This is a genuine question, and something I only feel comfortable asking anonymously so please don't accuse me of goading. I don't want to cause trouble. Thank you.

Not sure the grammar could be correct using they them pronouns, which makes me think it's probably not appropriate unless the author specifies the children are non binary. Can you give an example of a sentence?

Can you give us an example of how it is being used in a sentence?

I think if any group of children need clear unambiguous language, it's those with ASD.

My only other thought is are they referring to them as a duo (the twins), in which case the grammar would be correct or as individuals?

It would have totally confused my ND daughter in primary. And would infuriate her now

As one of a pair of twins we were always referred to as they/them and I do think it’s grammatically correct (even if it annoyed me).

Stevie likes their favourite subject at school which is science. They're really good at it.

Stevie likes chatting to their friends at school about their weekend. They need to remember to ask their mates things as well.

Stevie does things that might confuse people. They need to explain it's how they express themself.

@Womblingmerrily No, see the example I've given here in reply to a PP.

The cartoon kids are about 7, are they old enough to understand what being non-binary means? I grew up with brothers. I wanted to play with them and their friends, and I was a tomboy, but I knew that I was a girl and didn't want to be a boy. This would have confused me.

I think its potentially confusing as children will be unable to tell if references are to both twins or just one. I very much doubt that she and he are going anywhere anytime soon. In fact, I've actually noticed a decline in the use of 'they' singular of late, after it enjoyed a bit of a surge in my progressive organisation for a while.

Ah no, just read your examples. The twins are being referred to singularily therefore should be referred to as he.

This was my first thought too. There's way too much chance for confusion 😕

If you are reviewing the book, why can't you ask what the purpose of this approach is and what the purpose is in general based on your examples.

I think it is confusing and ambiguous particularly because it is about twins. As a reader, even as an adult, I’m wondering if Stevie likes chatting to the friends Stevie shares with their twin, Jo/e etc, or with their own, individual friends.

Using their doesn’t necessarily mean the person is non binary because we would always have said “that person is wearing their jumper back to front” just as easily as that man/that woman his/her, but in the context of literacy and confident reading for young children, using twins AND nonbinary children is needlessly obscuring the meaning.

Technically there is of course a clear link between autism and trans/nonbinary identities, but as a parent it would annoy me to have this assumed already at this age for my ND child.

This is so confusing!! The text should be as clear as possible, using him/her. Plenty of time later to learn about non-binary pronouns!

I might be against the mould but I think it’s perfect. It allows the reader to infer the child’s gender as they prefer and could help identify with them. I have a mild preference to reading books where the main character is a women or shares certain characteristics with me.

Also my son has long hair and despite wearing very ‘boyish’ clothes constantly gets referred to as she / her. As a rule now I have started to refer to other children as they / them until the child or adult specifies. I also do the same with dogs if I don’t know.

if you’re not sure you could always politely question their reasoning in the feedback 🤷‍♀️

One of the (many many) problems with all the non-binary 'inclusive' language is it's grammatically incorrect to use they/them pronouns in the singular, so it's not teaching children the correct use of the English language and I imagine must be particularly confusing to ND children (and also anyone learning English as a second / foreign language). So not particularly inclusive after all.

I don’t see an issue really. Things are changing and gender is becoming seen as more fluid now. I don’t subscribe to the idea that children will be confused or that they’ll be influenced to become transgender or gay, it doesn’t work like that. I know I’ll probably be in the minority here!

@KellyMaureen There are a couple of excellent Facebook groups where professional editors ask others' advice about this kind of thing. One is Editors' Association of Earth (EAE), which has contributors from the US, UK, Australia etc. Another is the CIEP, which is British. They may not be public groups but since it's an editing query (imo) you'd be able to join, I think. Or message CIEP. In your position I would ask for advice from these knowledgeable people to help you come to a decision.
My own feeling is that it's likely to cause confusion for primary kids.

it impacts comprehension.
is science both twins favourite subject at school? Or just Stevie’s?
it’s not clear
ate both twins really good at science or just Stevie?
again could be either

it’s not a good thing at all
if we want kids to understand what they are reading!

Based on what you've written, that both names are ambiguous in terms of gender, I think the book is written so that the characters could be male or female depending on how the text is being used for teaching. I wouldn't assume it's because these characters are non-binary. I think it's to make the text flexible as a resource, so that teachers can use it as boy twins 'Stevie and Alex' or girl twins 'Stevie and Alex'. Or maybe one of each. Because there could be instances when having particular characters of a certain gender or mix of genders is advantageous.

Surely they is not grammatically incorrect. If you were referring to someone and said 'they went to the shop' that would be correct

Stevie likes chatting to their friends at school about their weekend. They need to remember to ask their mates things as well.

Stevie does things that might confuse people. They need to explain it's how they express themself.

*so stevies friends need to also remember to ask their friends how they are?

And the people Stevie confuses need to explain their confusion is how they express themselves?*

Stevie likes their favourite subject at school which is science. They're really good at it.

sorry missed this one. Who's favourite subject does Stevie like? And who's good at it? Is there something missing from the start, like reference to a bunch of other kids?

I take more offence to the tautology in liking their favourite subject if we’re picking holes in it!

I don’t think theirs any ambiguity that it’s Stevie that’s good at science.

There is. Not theirs. Now I’m confused!