They/them pronouns in primary school workbooks

[KellyMaureen]

I've been asked to review some resources for kids about autism. It takes the form of a workbook for primary school kids. There are two characters who are twins, one with a unisex name which is usually always spelled the same, and the other with a name that can be used for boys or girls but is spelled the usual way you would spell it for a boy. Both dressed exactly the same except for different coloured T-shirts.

Both these kids have they/them pronouns in this workbook. Is this now the norm? Will there come a time when there is no he/she? This is what this feels like. I wanted to ask that question in feedback, but I'm unsure how to give my feedback without sounding inappropriate. AIBU about this?

What are your thoughts please? This is a genuine question, and something I only feel comfortable asking anonymously so please don't accuse me of goading. I don't want to cause trouble. Thank you.

I don't like how children are told that if they like traditionally girly and traditionally boyish stuff then that makes them non-binary. They're also taught that if they're not girly then they're a boy. This is so backwards.

@KellyMaureen you can see from this thread that if you do recommend changes to the text some people will disparage you as a pearl-clutching harridan. But, if you're willing to wear that, and if those are quotes from the text you've posted and not paraphrases, I think you should raise concerns about clarity for the sake of the children this resource is supposed to benefit.
Could you put it in terms of being concerned that assumptions that a child with ASD could only relate to a character of his or her own sex is buying into some of the worst beliefs about autism?

It's a load of bollocks isn't it OP.

It's not clear for anyone and particularly for someone with ASD.

As GC beliefs are now protected in law this resource could be seen as discriminatory.

It would not be suitable to tell all children that pork is yummy. For some it is, for some it is not something they would ever eat.

I think at primary school I would assume it's just incorrect usage and correct it. Have a chat with the author and ask about the character then decide.

I’ve got an autistic child who is vulnerable to black and white thinking, emotionally very young for her age, can be desperate to please others. Another girl older than her in our family with diagnosed autism is now living as a boy, which is a sexist concept. It has not benefited that family child’s mental health, possibly the opposite although we can never know now.

So I think it would be outrageous to gaslight a young autistic child in primary school books in that way. I have been very clear with my child that everyone deserves respect and different people may feel differently about lots of things, but the reality is that humans can’t ever change sex.
I've said that sexist people will pretend to you that you or anyone else can change sex. Because sexists believe that sex markers are things like behaviour or hairstyle, but the truth is those surface things are not enough, human physical sex is never changed by anything. I’m sure it’s not a perfect system but I consider it essential for safeguarding.

They aren’t literary stories they are social stories - they are used as behaviour modification and they use they/them to imply the character in the story and the reader. So it is referring to two people. It’s a psychological method of addressing theory of mind and they all follow a script and part of that is the pronouns used.

its also cheaper to have one resource than two.

I bloody hate social stories my daughter finds them patronising but the use of pronouns is the least objectionable issue (as it has nothing to do with gender politics) it’s part of the patronising tone of them, that autistics need these infantile texts is infuriating that the school feels one size fits all and that the answer to every issue is a social story - but that’s a whole other post!

My son hated social stories too and would agree that they are patronising.

He also had trouble as a young child in sorting out 'me' from 'you' in a sentence. Working out which 'they' was Stevie and which was the twins and which was the friend or friends would have infuriated him to the point of hurling the book into a corner.

It needs careful rewriting if it's to be useful at all.

The difference being people can actually be gay, but no one can be non binary. We’re male and female, nothing else and I don’t believe it’s right to sell children a lie like this and let them think this is something they can be.

We all can be who we are, we’re already able to do that, without changing our bodies or pronouns, what this movement does is seek to define what a man and woman are by using sexist stereotypes that if you don’t conform to, must mean you’re non binary. It’s regressive, limiting rubbish.

Lastly, what does ‘gender you were born with’ mean? Do you mean the sex they were born as, or the gender stereotypes assigned to them by society due to the sex they were born?

Do you genuinely believe that, if women all start calling themselves 'they', that will end their sex-based oppression by people who can tell very clearly that they are female, regardless of pronouns?

Could we really end sexism and misogyny at a stroke if all of the women changed their names to Steve, James or Paul and started insisting on being referred to as 'they'?

It's not referring to a woman as 'she' that causes discriminatory treatment of women; it's the discriminatory treatment of people who ARE unmistakeably women that's to blame.

I said less, not none. It would be a step, one of many.

No, it was in reference to one twin, Stevie.

They are quotes, exactly as they appear yes.

It's just propaganda. This trend for misleading vulnerable young people into thinking they can change sex is harming them mentally. It will also harm them physically if they go on to take experimental drugs like puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

In your shoes I would point out that in light of the Cass review you think the approach of this book is not just outdated but also dangerous.

I would not want to collude in the biggest medical scandal of our age, especially since the Cass review highlighted that gender questioning girls currently outnumber gender questioning boys six to one. It's very clearly not like being gay or left handed.

I don’t know why it is confusing 🙄

It is amazing how old children can be before they realise that their friends who are twins are not a 'unit' but are individuals. This book adds to the confusion.

I would bin it.

When you say "There is an over representation of non-binary and trans people in the Autistic community", we're talking about children here. There's now significant research that these children think they've been born in the wrong sex because they've been relentlessly targeted by adults & adult groups insisting that their complex feelings about their growing bodies is because those bodies are the wrong sex but drugs & surgery can fix them.

Pronouns and mangling children's understanding of language are all part of this. It's an appalling abuse of children too young to comprehend the issues around the impossible to achieve "sex change" and no reposbnsible adults should be advocating for this.

The recent Cass Review details some of the grim outcomes for children caught up in all this:

I still think you're going after entirely the wrong culprit, though.

It isn't standard grammar that's oppressing women.

Yes, this is right. Autistic children are being transed by adults.

So are potentially gay children, traumatised and abused children.

As linguistically confusing given twins may be seen as ‘they’ too.

It's a load of nonsense.

Non binary is meaningless anyway.

Imagine confusing children (and making grammar more difficult) for the sake of something that isn't real.

Honestly whoever is writing these books and pushing them on children in the name of trans ideology ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Yes there is definitely an over representation of autistic children identifying as trans.

it's horrific and abusive that adults are going along with it.

I'm the mother of an autistic daughter who thought she was a boy pre-puberty. Now post puberty she's quietly dropped it.

I could weep for these children. Just awful.

The grammar pedant in me simply goes 😮at this.

I feel like the book needs a glossary which they need to go over first:

He - singular him, one person
She - singular her, one person
They - plural, more than one person OR also used when a singular person doesn't want to call themselves he or she

Not ideal.

It can't be emphasised too much how sinister all this is.
Why are there so many girls with eating disorders, mentally unwell children, children in care, autistic children, bereaved children believing they've been born in the wrong body? And why has society allowed so many self invested adults to earn money off the backs of these vulnerable children by selling them the lie that their bodies are flawed but a sex change will fix them. A massive gravy train that the same adults are desperate to maintain.

Wake up people. Pronouns are part of gaslighting children (and adults) into believing the impossible - that anyone can change sex.

And if you haven't yet, go and read the well evidenced Cass Review and look at what we're doing to children and vulnerable young people

Non binary is just a load of attention seeking crap isn't it? I don't feel very male or female - well no, nor does anyone, you still are though if you look between your legs. Most people don't give the social construct that is gender any thought, other naval gazers need to find a way to make themselves feel special.

'Stevie does things that might confuse people.' He/she's not wrong about that!
Exactly how many primary age children are there 'identifying' as NB? Why would you write a book about non binary kids for autistic kids where the pronouns are just nonsense and are likely to completely confuse them?

In feedback I'd ask, 'Is this book aimed at non-binary autistic children? If not why are both characters in it using non-binary pronouns which may confuse autistic readers who are not familiar with the alternative meaning of plural pronouns?'

It sounds like a patronising pile of gender woo shite that my autistic ds would have given a major swerve. Maybe don't say that though.

I reckon in 20 years time we will be using slang words like 'hizhers'

Stevie took hizhers jumper off