To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

[FaeryRing]

It seems like there is nothing the state shouldn’t be responsible for any more! Feeding your kids, getting them to school, hiring ‘behaviour specialists’ for every classroom because parents don’t want to discipline their own children, giving you money towards virtually anything you ask for because it’s not fair you have to pay for anything yourself.. I find it absolutely wild and don’t think it’s at all realistic or representative of what most adults believe?

Mn was a state during covid. Any mention of harms from lockdowns social or economic sent posters on attack.

There’s still a bit of that kind of posting around

@MistressoftheDarkSide post on the last page explains it well. Better than I can but I'll try. Although I suggest you read her post which answers your question on how investing in good public services pays off and reduces the amount of dependancy. Other PP have also given good explanations but I can't remember who right now and don't have the time to re-read the whole thread).

Here's an example. Someone I know. Used to work but developed health issues. Thanks to long NHS wait lists and delays, by the time she was diagnosed things had got much worse. If she'd been able to access good and early help she'd still be able to work.

Another example. Woman flees DV. There's a shortage of refuge spaces due to funding cuts but even if she finds a place often she'll then be 'moved on' to temporary accommodation. Which is often as Mistress says sub standard to say the least. It's definitely not somewhere for vulnerable DV victims (or their DC) to recover from trauma.

Also even if they get decent housing quickly people don't just recover overnight from very traumatic events. Not without time and or effective support. Support which is often lacking due to funding cuts.

The CMS system is a mess too, and that isn't only relevant to DV. So primary carer parents are left dependant on the state instead of the other parent paying for their kids. From @mathanxiety posts it sounds like we could learn something from the US when it comes to better enforcing child support.

Some DV victims will be physically damaged as well as emotionally. Can't remember if it's this thread or another one but a poster was left disabled and unable to work after a very violent assault by her ex.

If public services were better funded (and preferably not privatised) the women and children affected by DV in situations I described above would get timely and effective support, and many would be able to get off benefits.

(Regarding DV, I do wonder how many of the 'cut them all off benefits cuz personal responsibility' PP jump on posters in abusive relationships insisting the person immediately LTB and dismiss the poster's financial or other practical concerns with 'I'd rather live in a bin on benefits if it were me' posts?)

I completely agree with you but I would also remind you that most of the other countries had even more strict lockdowns than us.

as I said it was obvious after the first lockdown (and it’s pretty obvious since, seeing how they flaunted the rules) that reactions were OTT to this. But as a PP said - everyone was screamed at for killing the elderly and being called selfish and I can understand why the govt basically went along with it out of fear of the people. I don’t think any other govt would have done anything differently.

There's also the very obvious cost of the social housing shortage. Which massively increases the cost of benefits because private rent is much higher than social housing. It's one of the reasons why so many working people still need benefits. Investing in more social homes would significantly reduce the benefits bill.

With Covid. I don't know what should've been done but it's a good example of the lack of will by employers to employ disabled or ill people. I know of a nurse who got Long Covid early on. She's been forced out of her job and stuck on benefits because management refused to make disability adjustments and reduced hours.

The cries to get disabled people back to work seem centred on disabled people, when often it's businesses and employers that need looking at. If you want disabled people in work, we need to encourage and support companies in employing disabled people and providing adjustments and flexible working. (Some people will still be to unwell to work and need support, and they deserve that support and compassion for their circumstances. Nobody would choose to be disabled and unable to work).

This issue (people unable to work) brings me back to the need to invest in public services. People are ending up too unwell to work and on benefits because of poor or no or delayed support from underfunded NHS, mental health services, and social care.

I agree that businesses do not want to employ disabled people.
There has been a massive increase in support to disabled people to enable them to participate in education. I know it is not enough, but there is a massive increase, especially in further education. So people come out with qualifications they could not have hoped to gain in the past. But employers have I think become less willing to employ disabled people than in the past. Most people are working harder than ever with high boss expectations, and employers are not willing to make adjustments unless they are basic e.g. different chair.

The OP bemoaned spending money on maternity wards, childrens hospitals and schools. I think you need to keep looking.

think the point being made is that everybody should step up and take responsibility.
If you have repeatedly done something which is damaging your health, for example smoking, is it seriously acceptable to keep doing that and expect to keep getting quite frankly pointless treatment for free?

How do you decide who's 'deserving' of treatment?

I also believe (perhaps I'm wrong if someone knows the figures?) that smoking saves the state money? They're heavily taxed but also tend to die younger (which should please the PP who're complaining about state pension costs).

Then there's the question of who's next after smokers? People injured when participating in a sport? Healthy to exercise but taking your argument of personal responsibility, perhaps everyone should stick to walking as their only form of exercise.

Fell off your bike after taking up cycling because of schemes aimed at increasing cycling? 'Personal responsibility' and 'should've stuck to walking or other form of transport'.

And no doubt anyone who's even a little bit overweight will be denied help in some PPs Personal Responsibility NHS. Nevermind that poor mental or physical health (including undiagnosed conditions) can cause weight gain. Poverty too. Also stress (which often goes hand in hand with poverty).

No - OP is suggesting people take some bloody responsibility for their own actions in life. That’s the bottom line and I’m not sure how people can disagree with it (although obviously many do because of how society is now).

Very heartening how many have silently agreed though via the vote.

Based on their (brand new to the site) opening post, yes. They let the mask slip further in.

@Giraffesandbottoms Lets imagine politicians, celebrities and media hammer home the message that people should take responsibility for their own lives. Then what do you think will happen? Do you seriously think everyone will become slim, do loads of exercise, eat well, not drink too much and give up smoking and vaping? And that all parents will become brilliant parents who raise healthy and productive children?
Is that how you think life works?

Culturally you can see differences though. In terms of responsibility and how impacts societies

Haven't RTFT yet but I want to make a point about toothbrushing in schools.

I work in a shool and I would actually be totally on board with this, as ridiculous as it would seem.

Our school is in a high deprivation area with astronomical levels of poverty.

It's not unusual for maybe 10-12 children in a class of five year olds to have Black and rotten teeth, holes in their teeth, missing teeth from rotting etc. It's so horrible to see. At that age their teeth should be pearly white still.

They don't brush at home and have awful diets. The amount of children that we hear and see upset because of toothache is really horrible.

It shouldn't be our responsibility as a school but when I see these poor kids and the state of their teeth, I'd be quite happy to have supervised tooth brushing sessions at school.

Sweden. I do agree however. We had to be seen to be in step. The lockdowns went on for too long however and the presentation of the data should have been tempered.

If you really believe it makes any difference I think you ae ignoring the international evidence and research all around you.
On a very basic level, if parents do not make their children brush their teeth, no one else does. Parents do have the responsibility. And look at where that has led to?
In the US people pay for their health costs, on top of insurance there are always co-pays. People are told by politicians to take responsibility for their health. And yet in the US many people eat a dreadful diet and are very overweight.

What you are advocating simply does not work. All it does is make those advocating personal responsibility feel morally superior. But it changes nothing. Read some evidence based research into public health and parenting to understand what does work. In summary it is about supporting people to make healthy choices through the overall environment, and early years help.

Where did I say I was advocating the US model?

I said culturally you can see a difference

You chose the US

@EasternStandard Where can you see what you advocate making any difference?

What do you think I am advocating from that short post on cultural differences?

You seem to have leapt forward to US for some reason

@EasternStandard You seem to be advocating that if we told people to take personal responsibility health and parenting would improve.
The US was one of two examples I gave. They advocate personal responsibility around health, and it does not work.
So I was asking you where advocates personal responsibility that has led to an improvement in health or parenting.

I see what you mean. Yes, they do say this, happy to be corrected. I suppose what I meant to say was that politicians are quick to come up with a 'solution' without necessarily acknowledging the cost e.g. the proposal for primary school teachers to supervise toothbrushing.

'That simple really'

The extent to which you display hatred towards fellow British citizens is completely unacceptable @FaeryRing

It is disconcerting to see such awful thought processes aired without any reflection or critical thinking.

Tooth brushing has been proposed because it would save money.

Public health measures save money for the taxpayer.

This is basic stuff.

But they had 2 years work experience rather than sweet FA Sat on the dole

I don't think there'll be any reading of evidence-based research going on.

People posting don't even understand in what ways the welfare state has changed, let alone why.

It’s this kind of post the pp was referring to

I don’t think you know what people have read

There are plenty of places where people area expected to take responsibility (Japan, Singapore) combined with being very tough on crime but culturally very different more like Britain in the 50s where people were hardworking and took responsibility.