To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

[FaeryRing]

It seems like there is nothing the state shouldn’t be responsible for any more! Feeding your kids, getting them to school, hiring ‘behaviour specialists’ for every classroom because parents don’t want to discipline their own children, giving you money towards virtually anything you ask for because it’s not fair you have to pay for anything yourself.. I find it absolutely wild and don’t think it’s at all realistic or representative of what most adults believe?

Do you expect businesses to not make a profit?

and would you mind sourcing the 393bn for me as I can’t find it and want to see what it was spent on!

3WildOnes · Today 12:31
Gruffallowhydidntyouknow · Today 12:19

No. You don't have children you can't afford or care for. It's appalling. If you are not even managing to feed your children 3 healthy meals a say you are failing as a parent. Edited
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I agree with you that those parents are failing their children 100%. However, I think we as a society would also be failing those children if we didn't step in to make sure that they have all the opportunities that other children have. We don't punish children because they had the misfortune to be botlrn to parents unwilling or unable to provide for them.

3WildOnes - yes, of course unfortunate children need to be cared for - I wouldn't argue with that. What tips me over the edge is that we're also preached at not to judge the awful parents! It just seems (particularly on MN) that you must not criticise anyone, even when their choices are harming their children and the state has to pick up the pieces.

Definitely protect and care for children - and call a spade a spade when it comes to criticising horrible parents. That's all I ask! Why are we as a society so scared to do this?

It was foul and put me off milk forever.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9317/#:~:text=According%20to%20Public%20Spending%20Statistics,2022%2F23%20across%20the%20UK

Frankly if you're paying a group of workers to do a job, the government should do it directly. I see no reason to add a level of tory donor fat cats into the middle of the process to cream a profit off the hardworkikg taxpayer.

This is the thing though - “parent motivated”. Schools where parents have bothered with their children’s education and general behaviour will have better students who learn more.

parents who aren’t bothering are the problem. No, I don’t think it’s fair that student A with a family who has taught them how to behave and gives a shit about their education has to be in a class with student B who interrupts the lessons frequently and ruins things for everyone else and needs extra support because at home they are stuck in front of the tv all day and no one does anything to help them with their studies.

someone needs to help student B, yes. But not at the detriment to student A. It’s a very shitty and awkward situation and frankly there’s a number of people who just shouldn’t be having children at all because they are not raising them in a way which is fair to the children.

That’s different though. Because profiteering fat cats are obviously far more deserving than benefit scroungers. 🙄

FaeryRing · Today 12:45
BIossomtoes · Today 12:42

Some have much greater opportunities than others. Surely that’s obvious or you wouldn’t have sharp elbowed parents moving into the catchment areas of good schools.
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What makes them good schools?

Quite! Schools are not buildings - they're the students, staff and parents working together (or not, as the case may be).

It makes me roll my eyes when politicians talk about bringing in a different demographic to the 'good schools', as if by entering the portals a magic spell will make students successful, well-adjusted and happy.

It's families behind those children who make the difference, and where students are motivated and well-behaved, good teachers will want to teach them - in preference to having to practise riot control in every lesson.

I was looking at this all wrong, I was looking for an ONS page but the article was about an analysis compiled by Civitas, a think tank set up by a former Times/Telegraph/Mail journalist. Of course state dependency was high during the pandemic! Half the country were on state funded furlough!

Can you not Google ONS? It’s all there.

But yes you do have the method wrong as you were focussing on council housing. You do know it’s not the only state provision?

And we now must pay the price. The day of reckoning is upon us. It was always going to have to be paid for and Rishi was the architect. We shouldn't have locked down as we did. We should have protected our vulnerable and our schools should have stayed open as a minimum.

I did Google the ONS but they don't have any records for the 1970s, I told you that, which is why I used the example of council housing to compare. You are the one focussing on that while providing absolutely no information about dependency levels in the 1970s just saying there is more to it than council housing which I agreed with, several times. But without comparable information I can't, you know, compare.

You can look up pre pandemic if you think 2019 is much different

I think you’ve got a bit muddled with the council housing info, it doesn’t actually represent much as items including pensions will clearly be higher now to 1970s

I agree with you and thought we’d see the kick back at the time, people were keen though

I don’t think it was the funding that was the issue in that once the approach was taken it had to be backed

It wasn’t scrutinised enough all round though for economic and other harms

@Giraffesandbottoms My experience working in a state school in a very affluent area. You'd probably be very shocked at some of the goings on behind closed doors that NHS staff, Education and Social Work dept staff have to discuss. Having a lot of money & a Ranger over doesn't always mean being a safe or good parent. Many of the children I've seen with foetal alcohol disorder are in middle class homes or private education establishments. It's very misunderstood. Where are you getting your info from? Interested to know if it your thoughts or actual experience.

But to be fair to Rishi, people were clamouring for furlough and lockdowns. It was bedlam - labour wanted more lockdowns and furlough. I don’t think it’s fair to just blame the govt, although I do think they knew by the second lockdown it was not necessary but they cared more about being popular and following the will of the people.

What post of mine are you referencing? I can well believe what you see in an affluent area! I think there is negligence across the board. Social services don’t question the middle classes and affluent for fear of legal repercussions and a belief if someone is well spoken they will be fine parents (incorrect ), just as they don’t question those who are willingly unemployed, for fear of violence etc. system is fucked. What’s worrying is well is that due to colossal underfunding, things which seem “minor” but IMO are negligent eg the teeth brushing, aren’t important enough to care about.

my experience is just anecdotal - combination of having a large amount of friends who are teachers (from different types of schools), and from having children at school/observations.

Just to be very clear - I in no way think having a Range Rover or more money makes you a better parent.

I think this issue is across all classes - at different levels. It’s more obvious when it’s food/clothing but it’s the same issue when it’s less obvious in families with more money: everyone across the board is just expecting teachers and everyone else to handle their parenting

You quoted my post. I agree there are many difficulties in the social system and neglect is always underpinned by another factor eg deprivation (whole other level of nappies at school) or stressors MH issues in parents.

Yep. There were some saying too much but sadly they got drowned out by public demand

And accused of being right wing granny killers!

People have totally rewritten Covid history. You couldn’t take your mask off for fear of being actually shamed and verbally attacked, and now everyone is complaining about how it was handled. People are their own worst enemies! The furlough mentality has stayed pretty strong even now - everyone wants to wfh and have flexi hours/do whatever the fuck they like and just expect employers to make it work because it’s convenient for them 🤷🏻‍♀️

This is maybe the most sensible thread I’ve ever seen on MN

I'm just telling you my experience, I got a small grant plus student loan which I worked all holidays to pay off -at that time it was mid way to what it is now. Think a 17 year old would get some sort of payment from the state if their parents won't support them or they don't have parents. Most students now will never pay off their loans and will be partly written off so not true to say they don't get any state support. And reason for student loans is far too many are going to uni so state couldn't afford to pay otherwise. The fact that many posters are so aghast at the suggestion that claimants should have to work for the state in return for benefits proves we live in an entitled society imo.

"Every child has education opportunities don’t they?"

Some children don't even have a school place.

People were clamouring due to the misrepresentation of data given the weight of Van Tam and Whitty. The numbers did not speak for what was being presented and those who ventured dissent were silenced. I am machiavellian enough to believe it was whipped up by statist and left wing academics and civil servants who wielded far too much power.

Those who were dying were the vulnerable who were likely to die before the summer or year was out. The percentage of people dying was tiny compares to the number of covid cases. So many times I put the actual stats with calculations on Mumsnet and every time I was shouted, nay screamed down by the shopping washers.

Fortunately, where we live nobody clapped and there were plenty of eye rolls. The biggest marker fkr me was our local, vast Sainsburys. The staff were interfacing daily with hundreds of people and weren't keeling over. It must have been replicated all over the country.

I had Covid. I was tired, achy and coughed for three days. It was nothing like influenza.