To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

[FaeryRing]

It seems like there is nothing the state shouldn’t be responsible for any more! Feeding your kids, getting them to school, hiring ‘behaviour specialists’ for every classroom because parents don’t want to discipline their own children, giving you money towards virtually anything you ask for because it’s not fair you have to pay for anything yourself.. I find it absolutely wild and don’t think it’s at all realistic or representative of what most adults believe?

The most accurate description of the MN demographic I’ve ever read.

I completely agree with that and I’ve been saying it for years. I’d add dentists to that.

Surely if a young person is capable of taking a first class honours degree, they are capable of moving to where opportunities are. If mine didn't do that if necessary, they'd be kicked very hard up the backside.

@RosesAndHellebores

Off the top of my head, I'd point to police, fire service, waste disposal which are state / LA provided via taxation of course but there aren't viable alternatives in the private sector as yet - though give it time I suppose.

Also defence, which may or may not become a bigger issue overall depending on whose writing the script for the "theatre of war" on a global scale.

I'm certainly not going to disagree with your opinion of the institutions you have mentioned as I'm currently trying to navigate social care for the elderly - both my parents in their 80s are in a shitstorm and are being failed massively by health and housing bureaucracy and legislation.

Which brings me to another point - legislation protects (allegedly and with various degrees of success) us on the consumer front etc, health, safety etc. How necessary and effective it all is - well that's another debate altogether.

@MistressoftheDarkSide yes you are right about fire services and the police. However, I think you will find that waste management whilst provided by LA'S is subcontracted to private companies.

Nevertheless, I don't think we, as a family, have ever received any services for free. We contribute through income tax, road tax and community charge. The latter, of course is progressive.

Moving for work is seen as the most radical thing you can do on here whereas it’s perfectly normal and necessary. Look at the Poles - many moved to where the work was, without a second thought. Poland has prospered in part due to the work ethic and pragmatism of its nation.

He doesn't need a kick up the arse, he is already willing and able to get a job in what he is qualified in, he has just passed his driving test last month and is using his small inheritance to buy himself a car and insure it in order to be able to travel to jobs that are in his field, the thing is he has no experience yet, he finished his degree in 2021 actually got his certificate on the day of his 21st birthday, but unfortunately covid got in the way of him actually furthering himself he also wants to do his masters. He has always worked and paid tax since he left uni though so he isn't a drain on society, I actually have all my children and my granddaughter living with me, so I am not just supporting myself I am supporting them too because that is what families do. No arse kicking required just care and support, in order to get them to where they want to go in life. They can't afford to rent or buy, so i'm stuck with them, it's far from ideal, but I will do whatever I can to help them so they don't have to rely on the state!

Well in that case, bearing in mind that all consumed goods and services are taxed multiple times, no-one gets anything entirely for free. Money is a tool that gets recirculated around the economy regardless of its source. Research by the Rowntree Foundation has proved regularly that the number of people who have never worked or contributed is tiny compared to those who have paid in "something" through work, even intermittently.

Taking more than you give is the result of artificially stimulated markets, because we do not work with true free market capitalism.

Your comment about degree holders moving to where the work is is partly the reason why areas decline. If all the people with the potential to earn move to a fee centralised areas then their hometown crumble due to lack of investment and community, which used to somewhat ameliorate the necessity for state intervention and support vanishes.

It started in the 80s and continues apace.

We Brits are stuck in the Little Britain mentality. Most don’t leave the locality of where they were born. That’s really restrictive and if I’m honest - a bit weird - in today’s world. So much to see and do - so many opportunities.

The people who are willing to go out of their comfort zone and their local area will be successful. Those who aren’t won’t. So we are now in a situation where the majority of Brits are floundering on the state and expecting those who get out there to pay for it all.

Exactly, thank you for putting it far better than I ever could!

Gone are the days when you left school at 16 and worked your way up, that simply isn't possible anymore!

Many were also single without families to consider, my dh works in a,warehouse ,quite a lot his colleagues are from Poland and other European countries, its common with the people he works with to live communally and share bills and food etc and a lot send money back home, yes I'm sure there are some people who move with their families
But it's a lot harder to do than as single person

Pretty much

There definitely needs to be more options I have a non academic 17 year old university isn't appropriate for him
But I left school in 1990 and those that went straight into work at 16 generally went into low paying jobs were there was not much room to work their way up

Your comment about degree holders moving to where the work is is partly the reason why areas decline. If all the people with the potential to earn move to a fee centralised areas then their hometown crumble due to lack of investment and community, which used to somewhat ameliorate the necessity for state intervention and support vanishes.

Yes, but being realistic, some very rural areas will never be able to provide jobs for those with certain qualifications and it's unfair to expect them to. If you come from a lovely rural area with no large urban centres (as I did, long ago!) and do a professional degree then you are clearly not going to find local employment. I don't know why this comes as a surprise to people? Or that they feel it's somehow an unreasonable expectation that they should move for work?

As someone upthread said, some people have had to move to a different country to find work. Moving to another area of the UK shouldn't be beyond most graduates. And...personal responsibility again...if you know in advance that you're not going to move from your native village, than train for something which will fit in with the local economy.

It's the same with people who won't move because they think it's a God-given right to live next door to family, or to be able to afford to buy in the village or town they were born in. I couldn't have bought a house in the village I grew up in - and there's no law of the universe that says I should.

I really think we've become ab it pathetic over this sort of thing! Our grandparents' /great grandparents' generation fought a terrible war - which required a hell of a lot more personal inconvenience than moving to another area for work.

So to all these posters saying move to work, what happens when everyone leaves and there is no one left to pick up the pieces?

I am a prime example, I stayed in my area after having my children, I worked and contributed to the economy, I cared for my children, then my dearly departed Nan and my god was that the hardest job I have ever had, it's soul destroying watching your love one decline and suffer. So if I had moved away who would have done that? It would have cost the state £100,000's, no doubt I will do the same for my parents, so again i've saved the state a fortune!

That isn't what is meant.
The issue is people who do not want to have a 'clubcard' .They do not want to share their shopping information with god knows who.They are being financially penalised to the extent they may feel coerced into getting one , and basically having their details shared against their will.This goes against the spirit all the data protection stuff that the government has introduced.
It is legitimately a government issue I think.

ChishiyaBat · Today 11:11

I get what you're saying - I had to deal with my mother's decline and I was 200 miles away - it was a hellish year. Lots of hours on the motorway, and constant battling with the relevant authorities etc.

But that can't be a reason for never moving away from the family home - where would be be if everyone insisted on staying next door to their relations?

There were opportunities to work your way up then though even in low paying jobs. Those jobs don't exist anymore though. My 16 year old is studying engineering, but if he wasn't I don't know what he would do there would be nothing for him, he would end uo in a low paying job with no way to drag himself up the ladder!

I think that part of the problem is that what people were once content with - affordable home, family life, a bit of fun on the weekends and freedom and time to pursue talents and passions for their own sakes have all been turned into consumer pursuits.

If you don't want more - more money, more status symbols, more of anything really, it's seen as a bit of a failing. The worst thing you can do is be content with your lot in life so it seems things are being engineered so that's the impossibility as paying for the basics consumes every moment - not for individual benefit, but to keep feeding the machine, else society will judge you.

I stand by my observations that "progress" and profit at all costs is not good for the human psyche.

My brother moved away to the Midlands I stayed, so i'm not saying not to move away, I am simply asking what happens when everyone moves away and there is no one left to do the caring, hospitality, retail, cleaning and other low paid jobs? Someone who stacks shelves is just as valuable as anyone else, but we have lost sight of that!

But you’re looking at % rather than the numbers - the population has increased significantly by then so the infrastructure just isn’t there.

Well that is what is happening. Hence state dependency being high. The UK isn’t attractive to high earners or skilled workers. We are competing in a global market for these people. Our issue is that too many people don’t want to make the UK attractive to work in. Far too easy to pull those who are successful down.

I think that part of the problem is that what people were once content with - affordable home, family life, a bit of fun on the weekends and freedom and time to pursue talents and passions for their own sakes have all been turned into consumer pursuits.

If you don't want more - more money, more status symbols, more of anything really, it's seen as a bit of a failing. The worst thing you can do is be content with your lot in life so it seems things are being engineered so that's the impossibility as paying for the basics consumes every moment - not for individual benefit, but to keep feeding the machine, else society will judge you.

Yes, and the horrors or celebrity culture, reinforced by social media, have done a lot of damage.

A careers teacher I knew often reported that the non-academic boys he worked with had wildly unrealistic expectations for their employment. He would invite experienced professional tradesmen (plumbers, builders, electricians etc) in to give talks and the boys would sneer and say 'I'm not working for that money - I'm going to be a footballer/model/'celebrity. The unrealistic expectations set up by the culture of glamour and celebrity is really pernicious. These boys thought that learning a trade was far beneath them.

I'm afraid I used to be a bit cruel when I encountered this attitude. A 15-year old boy I taught who wouldn't even lift his pen, when challenged about his future prospects, said "I don't care, Miss, I'm going to be a footballer when I leave school". I know I was being a bitch but I couldn't resist asking innocently 'Oh, so which club have you been spotted for?" It was a complete revelation to him that if you have any chance of being a pro footballer, you'll have been talent-spotted at lower secondary age and be involved in training already.

I agree.

It feels like the people who in previous years would’ve gone on to a respectable life as a tradesperson or similar are now destined for mental health problems and the resulting benefits when they fail in their aspiration to become an influencer or footballer and claim they’re too anxious to do anything bar stay at home on screens (I realise that all sounds a bit Daily Mail but I honestly can’t see some of the current lot cutting it in society at all).

The mindset of staying near family is a hard one.Very old friends have children who refuse to consider moving from the expensive area in which they grew up.They’re both low earners and so are locked into renting at high prices and being unable to save up for the unaffordable houses around them. I imagine they could be getting some state benefit to afford the rents.

My children have both moved away for better work prospects and for the lifestyle they want. I wish they lived closer but that’s just how it is.