Page 14 | Auriol Grey's manslaughter sentence overturned for killing cyclist. Correct decision?

Locutus2000 · 2024-05-08T13:17:59+00:00

Reported in multiple outlets - [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-68975335 BBC]]. Mixed feelings - it was a complex case with no winners on any side.

Theothername · 08/05/2024 18:46

GrannyAchingsShepherdsHut · 08/05/2024 15:02

On the point of her going shopping, wasn't it established that she did stop but was told to go away by other people (possibly emergency services) at the scene? So she did.

Obviously they didn't realise she was involved, and presumably her issuesith cognition meant she accepted the instruction at face value rather than explaining.

I'm also pretty sure that the council and police testified that they couldn't prove it was a shared path at the time, although signage was added afterwards to make it so.

So despite this section of pavement being demonstrably dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists to share, the council just added clearer signs? Did they conduct any sort of risk assessment? Are the signs clear enough for a partially sighted person to read?

Do the council have a legally binding duty of care to road users? Is anyone in the chain of decision making answerable for the design decisions?

prh47bridge · 08/05/2024 18:47

prh47bridge · 08/05/2024 18:34

It wasn't just that they weren't instructed. The reason the Court of Appeal refused the prosecution's request for a retrial is that there isn't the evidence to support a conviction for assault.

I'm not saying that it is never an unlawful act that can lead to a manslaughter charge, although I think it would be highly unusual for simply screaming and waving your arms. To take your situation, I would be surprised if you could convince a jury that X thought they were about to be attacked and even more surprised if you could convince them that you intended X to believe they were about to be attacked or, alternatively, that you knew they would think you were going to attack them but went ahead anyway.

Gross negligence manslaughter is usually for deaths following medical treatment, workplace incidents or deaths in custody. Outside of those settings, it is most likely to apply when the defendant knew (or should have known) that the deceased was in urgent need of medical attention but failed to seek medical assistance.

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Mind you, if you had motive they might be able to get you for murder.

Luxell934 · 08/05/2024 18:48

AlexaPlaySomeHappyHardcore · 08/05/2024 18:23

The pavement looks quite narrow and right next to a busy road and I can imagine if someone like AG felt not too steady on their feet/lacked spacial awareness they might feel panicky about a cyclist coming towards them and unfortunately AG reacted the way she did (waving her arms, shouting and swearing). It all happened so quickly and it’s utterly tragic.

I really don’t think she should have been convicted of manslaughter and jailed. The original case seemed quite flimsy tbh and there seems to be no proof Auriol Grey pushed or even tried to push Celia Ward.. I also don’t think she deserves the dehumanising way she’s been described by some on this thread. Vile creature for example.

I feel bad for everyone involved especially those who loved and miss Celia Ward.

The pavement was 2.4 metres wide.

NotYourAuntie · 08/05/2024 18:48

Iwasafool · 08/05/2024 18:44

We always kept paper copies on the division and HQ.

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Kept…what about now in 2024? You have paper records of every road and pavement going back 50yrs? Crimes, cases yes I would expect so. But something so low priority…

Emmaanddan · 08/05/2024 18:48

The way some people are talking it's as though Grey was an intimidated pedestrian defending herself.

No. Watch the video. Grey was the aggressor, she deliberately went at the cyclist, shouting, swearing, waving her arms and blocking the side of the path the cyclist was on. Grey went at the cyclist, she wasn't scared, she went for the cyclist.

Whether or not the cyclist should have been there or not, Grey didn't even give that lady a chance. She deliberately forced her into the road.

Welovecrumpets · 08/05/2024 18:48

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 08/05/2024 18:35

I take on board that Mrs Ward was a cherished mother, retired midwife and mum.

However, as I’ve also said she was sharing the pavement with a user who had impaired visibility amongst other disabilities and had Mrs Ward simply stopped her bicycle and got off and walked, having anticipated a pedestrian also on the shared path then this accident would’ve probably been avoided. Why on earth Mrs Ward didn’t get off and walk her bicycle is beyond me. Did she think her right of way was greater than Auriol’s?

I don’t doubt that Auroil could be a difficult character prone to outbursts though.

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Have you watched the video? There was space for both of them to pass. Not with miles of room but comfortably. That woman stepped into Mrs Ward’s trajectory. If she’s so nervous and vulnerable why did she do that? She practically made and wanted an accident to happen!

XenoBitch · 08/05/2024 18:53

AutismProf · 08/05/2024 18:45

I understand she has now been diagnosed autistic as well.

Not everyone who is autistic would make the same mistakes of course as everyone autistic is different, but I would say that someone with significant issues with flexible thinking might well shout like Auriol did, thinking the cyclist should not be in the pavement, especially if they have learning needs and are partly sighted and unsteady on their feet as she clearly is in the video. That she left before the emergency services arrived and went on to do her shopping is a very clear statement as to the significance of her social understanding differences/difficulties and flexible thinking issues.

I think she probably needed more social and practical support than she was getting, but as a middle aged woman she was undiagnosed autistic and the level of challenges she faced clearly underestimated.

It's a tragedy for Mrs Ward's family either way.

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I have a dear friend who is (late diagnosed) autistic, and is very rigid in their way of thinking about laws and rules. I was walking them home once (at night), and a cyclist came towards us on the path. My friend was already very overwhelmed, and when the cyclist got to us, they stood in front of them and shouted "get off the pavement you fucking wanker". The cyclist managed to swerve and continue on their way. My mind literally went to the AG case when this happened.

My friend has been in trouble with the police multiple times for shouting and raging at people who are not following "their" rules. It is difficult, but they get no support at all... they are not deemed eligible from the local services as they can read and write, and deemed to be "too intelligent".

LemonPeonies · 08/05/2024 18:54

Gumbo · 08/05/2024 15:38

I'm a cyclist, I only ever cycle on the road.

I'm also a pedestrian. Several times a week I walk to town along a narrow pavement (for pedestrians only) and most times I encounter a woman cycling along it. She's nearly hit me more than once, and now swears at me for once daring to suggest she cycles on the road. Neither the council nor the police are willing to do anything about her, and it's a matter of time before someone gets knocked into the road.

Auriol Grey should never have been convicted, the decision today is absolutely the correct one.

You know what to do 🤣

Welovecrumpets · 08/05/2024 18:55

XenoBitch · 08/05/2024 18:53

I have a dear friend who is (late diagnosed) autistic, and is very rigid in their way of thinking about laws and rules. I was walking them home once (at night), and a cyclist came towards us on the path. My friend was already very overwhelmed, and when the cyclist got to us, they stood in front of them and shouted "get off the pavement you fucking wanker". The cyclist managed to swerve and continue on their way. My mind literally went to the AG case when this happened.

My friend has been in trouble with the police multiple times for shouting and raging at people who are not following "their" rules. It is difficult, but they get no support at all... they are not deemed eligible from the local services as they can read and write, and deemed to be "too intelligent".

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Has your friend screamed and sworn at a 6ft tattooed steroid type by any chance..?

Iwasafool · 08/05/2024 18:56

The loss of? How do you know they were lost? The fact that the people of huntingdon believed or didn't believe it was legal is neither here nor there. It either was or it wasn't and no one has been able to prove it was.

Allfur · 08/05/2024 18:56

Welovecrumpets · 08/05/2024 18:55

Has your friend screamed and sworn at a 6ft tattooed steroid type by any chance..?

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Yes funny that 🤔

XenoBitch · 08/05/2024 18:57

Welovecrumpets · 08/05/2024 18:55

Has your friend screamed and sworn at a 6ft tattooed steroid type by any chance..?

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No. I don't think they would be alive to tell the tale of they had!

Welovecrumpets · 08/05/2024 18:58

XenoBitch · 08/05/2024 18:57

No. I don't think they would be alive to tell the tale of they had!

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What a surprise. So it seems they can control their outbursts, just not when the person they’re raging at is unlikely to do them harm?

Welovecrumpets · 08/05/2024 18:58

Allfur · 08/05/2024 18:56

Yes funny that 🤔

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Indeed. They suddenly discover their self control when it’s their own safety at risk.

fluffiphlox · 08/05/2024 18:59

The BBC article says Ms Grey has cerebral palsy and a vision problem not any mental incapacity. She sounds a bit of a menace, particularly as far as other road users are concerned. Her family are quoted, expressing their sympathy with the poor woman who died, has Ms Grey said the same or has she gone off shopping again?

NotYourAuntie · 08/05/2024 18:59

XenoBitch · 08/05/2024 18:53

I have a dear friend who is (late diagnosed) autistic, and is very rigid in their way of thinking about laws and rules. I was walking them home once (at night), and a cyclist came towards us on the path. My friend was already very overwhelmed, and when the cyclist got to us, they stood in front of them and shouted "get off the pavement you fucking wanker". The cyclist managed to swerve and continue on their way. My mind literally went to the AG case when this happened.

My friend has been in trouble with the police multiple times for shouting and raging at people who are not following "their" rules. It is difficult, but they get no support at all... they are not deemed eligible from the local services as they can read and write, and deemed to be "too intelligent".

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This is interesting and if Ms Grey is similarly unable to control herself due to her neurological condition of autism, then shouldn’t the conviction be overturned and she re-tried with a defence of diminished responsibility?

Perhaps Ms Grey is too dangerous to be in the community without a carer?

Emmaanddan · 08/05/2024 18:59

@Welovecrumpets I was just about to say exactly this.

I wonder if Grey would have done this to a big burly bloke. Doubt it 🙄

Cailleach1 · 08/05/2024 18:59

Luxell934 · 08/05/2024 18:48

The pavement was 2.4 metres wide.

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The footpath doesn’t seem to be uniform in width. At the point they meet there is a signpost taking up space on the ground. You’d need clearance then as well between a moving vehicle and the pedestrian. Further along it curves and narrows as it reaches an intersection.

It doesn’t look a comfortable spot to pass each other. The pedestrian could have stopped and pressed towards the railings. The cyclist could have dismounted. Lots of could have. I don’t know what would have been best.

XenoBitch · 08/05/2024 19:00

Welovecrumpets · 08/05/2024 18:58

What a surprise. So it seems they can control their outbursts, just not when the person they’re raging at is unlikely to do them harm?

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The person cycling on the path was a large black guy dressed all in black, with hood up. Bit stupid to be cycling at all considering it was dark out, and he would have been poorly visible to everyone.

And my friend, when overwhelmed, can get angry, and it does not matter who they "rage" at... and they have been assaulted themselves as a result.

NotYourAuntie · 08/05/2024 19:01

Iwasafool · 08/05/2024 18:56

The loss of? How do you know they were lost? The fact that the people of huntingdon believed or didn't believe it was legal is neither here nor there. It either was or it wasn't and no one has been able to prove it was.

Both courts do not think anyone needs to prove it was or was not registered as a legal dual use path to decide the case. It’s immaterial.

Allfur · 08/05/2024 19:01

As a cyclist i would have stopped, but it's quicker for all involved to let the cyclist go first, a matter of seconds

Welovecrumpets · 08/05/2024 19:02

XenoBitch · 08/05/2024 19:00

The person cycling on the path was a large black guy dressed all in black, with hood up. Bit stupid to be cycling at all considering it was dark out, and he would have been poorly visible to everyone.

And my friend, when overwhelmed, can get angry, and it does not matter who they "rage" at... and they have been assaulted themselves as a result.

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Ah well. Sorry but I’m tired of people who intimidate members of the public, my empathy chip for them has run out. Let others live their lives in peace.

Iwasafool · 08/05/2024 19:02

NotYourAuntie · 08/05/2024 19:01

Both courts do not think anyone needs to prove it was or was not registered as a legal dual use path to decide the case. It’s immaterial.

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Funny that they tried to find it then.

NotYourAuntie · 08/05/2024 19:03

Iwasafool · 08/05/2024 19:02

Funny that they tried to find it then.

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Only the prosecution at the lower court tried to before the trial. Turned out it was immaterial.

twilightermummy · 08/05/2024 19:04

When I saw the footage, I immediately thought that she should be jailed. I remember my reaction being one of complete disgust when I watched it. I'm gutted for the victim's family at today's news.