To think good school places will be even harder to find next year because of the VAT on school fees

[Nesca1]

We are are looking at secondary schools for DS. We have our eye on a decent school bang in the middle of a solid middle class area . The school is always over subscribed; this year we would have gotten a place but last year we would have missed out because of how far we are from the school.
Usually, the school offers places to children living 1600m away, last year it was 1400m due to a large number of sibling applications.

Due to the whole VAT issue, i think more parents from the local area are going to be sending their kids to this school, rather than sending them to private schools.

Is this a reasonable assumption? I don't think parents will wait for the policy to be enacted, but they will move their year 6 children into this school.

That is interesting @Mia85:

"5.1 What the term ‘education’ covers
Education means a course, class or lesson of instruction or study in any subject, regardless of when and where it takes place.
Education includes:
• lectures
• educational seminars
• conferences and symposia
• recreational and sporting courses
• distance teaching and associated materials
If a separate charge is made for registration, this is part of the provision of education"

So it would include things as far apart in cost as 1:1 music lessons and Uni fees. And could include holiday camps ("recreational"). Does "a class" mean nursery classes? They have to follow EYFS, so that really intrigues me.

Forgive me for being sceptical about the idea that so many private school parents suddenly care so passionately about the education of children in the state sector.

I mean, I get it. Private education is extortionate and of questionable value. Adding 15% or 20% to the fees on top of what is already charged is probably unappealing to many.

But just say you don't want to have to pay extra tax rather than trying to dress it up as faux concern over the plight of children in the state sector who may suddenly find it harder to get a place at a particular state school. It's so disingenuous.

Oh yes, such a big issue which will effect children so significantly. You're right to highlight it OP. Probably up there with climate change and NHS waiting lists in terms of urgency.

My kids won't be taking up a secondary state place, been there done that, ended in disaster hence now in private ed. Dd will continue as she only has one year left, she'll then go on to local state sixth form (grades depending) Ds will be home tutored and I'll give up my job to tutor him. I'm currently a higher rate tax payer, so the gov. Will lose my nice chunk of tax. I know I'm not alone in this, so in fact what the gov. Get in VAT they'll lose in revenue from income tax. I very much doubt it will improve state secondary schools. SLT and tackling behaviour make the biggest impact to the school environment. A poor leadership team, leads to poor outcomes for all the kids.
It's the small independent schools which will be hardest hit, it won't make a difference to the likes of Eton or Harrow. I don't think many Steiner or democratic schools will survive, and the kids who attend those schools do so because the overwhelming majority are ND, and have moved to an educational curriculum which suits them better, than the current state model.
Grammar schools will be the most impacted by this move, but given it's all to do with the politics of envy, I suspect they'll be scrapped, just as many were in the 60s/early 70s under Harold Wilson's government.

There will be some pockets where there are high numbers of kids in private schools. Some areas may become a tad less desirable if private is perceived as too expensive but state schools aren't well regarded.

Nationally? There won't be much impact. Only 6% of kids are in private schools, and a big chunk of them will still afford it at a higher price.

And this is why all selective education should stop. The attitude of this post is repugnant. But as long as you're doing alright, that's all that matters, right? And if you can milk the system (securing that state funded selective education you "quite fancy") to further feather your nest, then even better. And before you harp on about all that hard work you have done 'investing' to afford PS, perhaps if we stopped this cycle of privilege then other people's equal amount of hard work will also ensure their kids have a better future, not just your own. Every kid should get access to the best education - there should be no opting out or creaming off the top. What's happened to our state schools is an outrage, but maybe if some of the middle class time and effort spent on here (and in the real world) whinging about VAT was spent on pressuring all colours of government to improve education then we'd have better schools

This!

I love your certainty that all those kids would, of course, get the grammar places ahead of the state educated. More private school parents may indeed consider grammar school. Some of them will be surprised to find that it's harder to pass an entrance exam when the first question isn't 'can your parents afford the fees?'...

@lonerider I have made a decision never to respond to anyone who uses the offensive, lazy and ignorant expression"politics of envy" But I do have to say, that if the imposition of VAT means the end of Steiner schools, that's an excellent if unintended consequence.

Seeing as school rolls are falling nationwide due to a decline in birthrate (we're at the end of a minor boom in 2012/13 now and it goes even lower once you add in the two child benefits cap, Brexit and Covid, followed by the insane House prices and inflation), it's not going to hurt future kids to actually have schools remaining open and fully staffed due to a switch away from the private sector.

It's certainly not a reason for people to argue that surely they are doing us all a favour by keeping their children in private.

The 'haves' call it politics of envy. To the 'have nots' it's the politics of fairness

I’m pretty sure I contribute more to the state coffers than 99% of the population.

To suggest that I’m in some way trying to milk the system is both woefully inaccurate and also offensive.

Every single penny I spend comes from highly taxed PAYE income. I’ve never inherited a single pound, never had a penny of state support. I have never used state schools and have private healthcare.

I do however pay £80k in deductions every year. Do you not think this means I pay more towards the advancement of others than most people do?

How much do you pay towards funding the education of others? I assume it must be a lot more than I do bearing in mind your criticism.

Our prep school gets an almost 100% pass rate to the nearest grammars. Many of the entrance exams are fairly easy to tutor for (I’m not saying that’s right). Many private schools prep for the 11+ grammar exams, so those children are already at an advantage compared with those at some state schools which do no prep (again, I’m not saying that’s right or fair).

I live near a grammar area. This policy will see competition for good schools and grammar school increase. The grammars near me still retain a diverse social/racial mix of children. Definitely not all middle class sharp elbowed, however once this policy is put in place I can see the make up within these schools will change and not for the better. Additionally, house/rental prices near the best schools will increase. It has happened before when a new academy school opened and offered a fantastic curriculum/extra curricular activities. The school have changed their admission policies as the school was so popular and the catchment area is now tiny.

Of course they won’t but some will and that will have a negative impact on state school children.

My main experience of 11+ PS are highly selective schools and they massively outperform the local grammars so in those areas the impact will be significant. I agree less so where non-selective PS are concerned.

maybe if some of the middle class time and effort spent on here (and in the real world) whinging about VAT was spent on pressuring all colours of government to improve education then we'd have better schools

Why have the 94% of state school parents not managed to put pressure on the government to improve state schools? It’s a mystery why people think that the 6% of private school parents have some kind of magic powers to improve the state system.

@OnlyTheBravest "The grammars near me still retain a diverse social/racial mix of children."

Interested to know which grammar areas have a diverse social mix. I've never come across one that does.

I see the pressure from invested parents. It’s higher house prices and good involvement with the school typically

It means the state school achieves well

This will just increase as more spending ability transfers from private to state

People have been saying this so when it happens, well it’s not like it wasn’t pointed out.

Bear in mind that a 20% uplift in fees does not mean you need 20% more income to cover it. You need at least 40% more income to cover it because you lose half in tax! So an extra £5000, say, means you will need £10000 or more of extra pre-tax income to afford it!

Private school parents will have more money for tutors to get good SAT scores or pass 11 plus or put kids into extracurricular activities that will help them land the better state schools so yes this whole idea is going to really harm people on normal incomes.

@Charlie2121 is your argument really that because you clearly earn a fuck tonne of money, and therefore also pay a lot of tax, then you somehow benefit society? If so, you've beautifully demonstrated the politics (and ignorance) of privilege more than I managed to in my original post, so thank you

People paying high tax do benefit society, we need those taxes to function

It sounds inevitable in your area- especially if it’s a grammar.

Private schools aren’t equally distributed across the country so the effects will vary. My area doesn’t have private schools but kids travel to grammar schools in the next county.

I think it’s going to increase house prices around the best state schools which is a different kind of inequality to paying for private schools.

@Another76543 no it's not a mystery. Those 6% have the most time, resources and connections than the other 94% put together, so yes, a very real difference could be made by them if only they thought of someone other than themselves

They can't take their property with them.

I think this is what some people don’t understand. £5k VAT per child is almost £10k gross income. Families often have 2 or more children. That’s £20k gross income. Plenty of families simply do not have a spare £20k of gross income, on top of the increases in the cost of living. It’s not just “a bit more”.