For thinking that a child who is different isn’t necessarily neurodiverse

[Cleggin]

Hi just hoping for some perspective.

My DH has severe anxiety, specifically health anxiety, and a tendency to worry to the point of fixation about his own health and that of our kids. I can’t count on both hands how many things he’s diagnosed himself or our children with. The latest is an obsession that our DS is autistic or neurodiverse in some way. I couldn’t disagree more and think that while he has some funny little quirks, he’s essentially a happy and healthy 6 year old.

The facts:

DS is doing ok at school. He’s on track for most of the things academically. Bit behind with writing but not worryingly so

Happy and excited to do new things and go to new places. He isn’t upset by routine changes or transitions etc

Likes playing with friends, going to parties, going on holiday etc. Embraces new experiences

No sensory issues of note

Eats pretty much everything, not fussy

Kind and empathetic (most of the time)

Enjoys jokes and being the class clown

Doesn’t meltdown or tantrum to any major extent

Enjoys school

DH concerns;

He can be very excitable - doesn’t take much to fill his cup.

He has a habit of running and jumping about, sometimes waving his arms about and sometimes throwing himself on the couch. It’s sometimes accompanied by explosion noises etc. He does it a lot at home and I think he does it more when tired or overstimulated. DH thinks he’s stimming whereas I think he’s just expressing his enjoyment/happiness and it feels nice to do it. Possibly helping him to process whatever he’s thinking about at the time

Quite often chats away to himself, sometimes singing, sometimes reenacting something from his favourite show etc. Sometimes just repeating a new or interesting word. Sometimes just whispering nonsense

Likes to make up silly words and names

He has a few close friends and isn’t that interested in branching out or making new friends instead preferring to stick with those he already has. School have noted this independently of us. They haven’t said it’s a concern but they did say they might put them in different classes next year

Can sometimes be a bit withdrawn/unsociable with some kids, especially those who are a bit full on. He has a hearing loss so noisy kids can be a bit too much for him at times. Which makes me laugh as he is so noisy and excitable himself but doesn’t embrace it in other kids. But when he’s with his best friend, he’s the loudest and silliest of the lot. So I think it’s a confidence thing, particularly considering the hearing issue

Occasionally he appears not to want make eye contact when someone is up close. I don’t think he has a problem with eye contact at all and think it’s normal for a 6 year old who is being told off and told to look at the person telling him off not to want to do so. I’d say as a general rule he makes great eye contact, even with people he doesn’t know all that well and with adults and kids. Sometimes I think he feels a bit uncomfortable when someone is in his face and asking him questions and he sometimes zones out a bit but I think that’s totally normal. DH disagrees

Please can someone help. I feel like it’s destroying our marriage and it’s damaging his relationship with our DS. He seems unable to relax and enjoy spending time with him without analyzing every little thing he does and attributing it to a self diagnosis of autism. I can’t seem to get through to him. He wants us to push for some kind of referral whereas I feel that would set a hare running that is completely unnecessary and potentially damaging to the well being of our happy and healthy child.

im planning to share the answers from this thread with him in an effort to help him
see things more clearly and in the hope it might encourage him to seek help for his overwhelming anxiety.

Everything I’ve written has been seen and agreed by him (apart from obviously my slant on it).

My son made it all the way to Y7 before teachers picked up on his "differences" that were later confirmed to be traits of autism. I was your DH in this scenario, desperate for others to recognise the difficulties I observed in DS's behaviour, but others brushed me off as anxious and seeing what I wanted to see.

His primary school teachers insisted for years that he was "fine" --although "sensitive" "awkward" "slow" "distracted" "lazy" and other choice words 🙄 but certainly NOT autistic. Uh huh.

Wow. Just wow. I would love some of the people on here who say I’m being dismissive to try walking in my shoes for a moment. When you’ve spent the best years of your life with someone you love dearly who is tearing themselves apart with worry and is projecting that worry onto the people they love, it is very hard not to be dismissive of the latest in a long line of things. Yes I don’t think DS is autistic. But I have said over and over again, I’m not closed off to the possibility of it. Yes he may be. He may not be. The point is, my DH is obsessed to the point that he finds it hard to function and is unable to enjoy spending time with his child without analyzing and obsessing over his every word and move. You try being understanding then

@Cleggin schools don't pay lip service they can't afford to. They will observe and if they see nothing/very little it will end there. They won't put anymore energy into it than that.

Hi OP,

I work in a diagnostic pathway for ASD with children and young people, I have been doing these assessments for years.

Based on what you have described we wouldn’t accept a referral for consideration. Few things to note:

1. We are looking for concerns across contexts. As a minimum we would expect school to have some concerns. As part of a referral school and home are required to do screeners which are used to determine whether we take things further and accept a referral. If they are wildly different we might meet the family to formulate why that might be happening but would likely reject the referral. We cannot diagnose unless difficulties are seen across contexts and through experience I have never met and diagnosed a child where school have had no concerns.
2. What your husband described as ‘stimming’ behaviour would not fall under part of the diagnostic criteria ubless it was something your son was doing pervasively that may have an impact on his ability to do other activities (so can’t be redirected away). Even if this was the case there would need to be a number of other examples of similar behaviours.
3. He seems socially motivated. Having fewer friends does not mean that he struggles to initiate or maintain reciprocal interactions. The latter is what we’re looking for in an assessment- when kids either have no social motivation or they do really want friends and are trying but getting the social nuances wrong.
4. In an assessment I wouldn’t class some avoidance of eye contact as an unusual response to eye contact unless a young person was actively avoiding throughout an assessment (including upon entering a room) and didn’t look to me when I called their name or asked them to look towards something else (by pointing towards something for instance).
5. Even if your child was still doing all of the things your husband has ‘zoomed in’ on, the things you describe that your child is able to do are at odds with a diagnosis and therefore wouldn’t meet the criteria.

It sounds to me that you don’t have anything to worry about for now. Maybe things will change/maybe things have been missed so I don’t want to say for sure that it wouldn’t meet a threshold for assessment. But if you are really worried just go to your GP or school and do a screener for referral to see if it meets the threshold.

I wonder whether the right step here is for your husband to seek some support (as others have already suggested). I do understand that it’s hard when you start seeing little glimmers of something, but autism is a combination of specific difficulties and all of those difficulties need to be present to varying degrees for it to meet threshold for a diagnosis.

Good luck OP!

OP, my ds was pretty much displaying the ‘quirks’ and differences you have listed. He was different as a child, and very similar now as an adult. Still has the same five friends he had when at high school, and shows no interest in expanding his friendship group. He’s quite socially awkward, but is a delight to be around. When he was young, especially at primary school, there wasn’t really anything on the scale of today, whereby I’m pretty sure his behaviour would have been flagged as probable ADHD etc. it must be so difficult these days to know what to do to make sure you are doing what’s best for your child. I would be tempted to just let him be who he is without putting a label on it. He seems to be happy in his bubble, and I would only be concerned if he was struggling and unhappy. Celebrate and embrace his ‘quirks’.

Op, I think you'd be better off posting in relationships. You've had some pretty good advice om here but none of its acknowledged the issues with your DH.
Personally, I would talk to him and explain that his health anxiety is impacting on your relationship and see if you can get him to agree to speak to someone.
I know you've already tried this.
Have any other family members spoken to him about it ?
If he doesn't want to get help then you need to decide if you can cope with this for the rest of your life.
Definitely get some advice out of AIBU anyway.

A slightly tangential suggestion. Not ASD, but something you might want to think about given the handwriting and the sensory seeking is an OT assessment. There is something called sensory processing disorder where different sensory systems develop at different rates and sensory motor integration can be affected. It can affect things like handwriting. The only reason I mention it is aged 6 my son was similar in terms of the crash landings and the handwriting. I was aware of it because I had it as a kid and I witnessed the same patterns in him. Went to the OT thinking I’d be told I was being ridiculous as his teacher hadn’t picked it up but he did have it and a year of OT sessions and exercises made a big difference to his handwriting, coordination, emotional regulation, and also to our understanding of him. Paediatric OTs may also pick up if there’s complexity and suggest additional assessment if needs be.

on average a class of 30 will have between 1-3 children will autism. It's far higher than 0.8 the true number is around 7% allowing for the large number of recently or undiagnosed adults.

Firstly ds had glue ear with significant hearing loss at that age, and many of the behaviours that can indicate ASD can also indicate glue ear.

However he does sound very like ds, and ds was diagnosed with ASD (and ADHD) in early teens and I so wish I'd fought for him to be diagnosed sooner, but all I got when I asked was "glue ear" or "he's a summer boy - he'll grow out of it."
So I don't think it's a given either way, but I do think it could be worth keeping an open mind. For Ds the diagnosis was such a relief to him, and it did his self-esteem so much good, plus opened up other help which made school much better for him.

But definitely request to the school he isn't split from all his friends. Fine if they're splitting them into two halves, fine, but all the others in one form and him in another may well work out badly. They'll tell you they can play lunchtime etc but having had that happen to the two of mine who haven't got ASD, I can tell you it had a detrimental effect on their confidence and their ability to make friends far longer than just a year.

Thank you for taking the time to post this. I am going to show it to DH in an attempt to help ease his concerns (although I highly doubt it will be the end of it, it may give us a few days break from worry).

1. school haven’t raised concerns. But then he is only in Yr1 and has a relatively inexperienced and young teacher. Very experienced TA though. Very experienced TotD too. But I suppose it’s possible that things could be missed due to his young age and stage of school. The only thing they have noted is his preference to stick to his very close friend but have indicated he is quite happy to play alongside others and happy to interact with others both socially and in the context of learning. Echoed by TotD who noted that he engaged in extended and appropriate social conversation with his peers while playing

2. The ‘stimming’ is definitely not pervasive. He seems to only do it at home or if very stimulated outside of home. He can talk and stop whenever he chooses, and will quite often give me a thumbs up as he gallops past. If I say for example, come here a moment, he’ll instantly stop and come over. He says he doesn’t do it at school because he doesn’t want to and would be embarrassed if the other kids saw him. Surely if this was true stimming, none of this would be possible?

3. he is definitely socially motivated. Loves the idea of meeting friends for play dates/parties although he can sometime like the idea of it more than the actual experience. He quite happily interacts with friends on these occasions although he does also like his own company and will happily play by himself for short periods before re-emersing himself in playing with others. I would say he isn’t always the best at initiating play but he does respond well when others initiate it. That said, when he is with his close friends he is very good at initiating play and being the ‘leader’. While he hasn’t always been good at imaginative play (particularly as a young toddler) this is certainly not the case now and his teacher even noted what a vivid imagination he has and how much he enjoys role playing etc

4. IMO his eye contact is not an issue, the only time I’ve noticed him to actively avoid it is when he’s being told off and being told to look at the person who is reprimanding him (me or my husband). 99% of the time he makes and maintains eye contact in what I perceive to be a completely typical way. Also if someone (usually a grown up who he may not know well) gets a bit in his face wanting him to talk or answer specific questions, he sometimes retreats a bit and will reply but not always make eye contact unless prompted. Again I don’t see this is unusual but please correct me if I’m wrong

5. If you wouldn’t mind, please could you elaborate on the things you think I describe that are at odds with a diagnosis? I think it would be helpful for DH to see it in black and white. Appreciate this isn’t you diagnosing anything, merely responding to the facts I’ve given you.

It sounds more like a DH issue than a DS issue.

My experience of raising a child with "high functioning" ASD was of years of niggles coming together and becoming more obvious and intrusive. It was multi-hour meltdowns at 7 that were my trigger point for referral. Once I started mind-mapping all the little niggles and doubts, it all came flooding out and dots became joining in themes- the chewing through clothes, permanent shorts, inside out socks, hating brushing hair/ teeth... The interests had always been intense etc, etc.
School didn't see it. He's a masker who generally copes with school rules and social expectations (however unstructured play at something like a soft play party and he always played solo)

If being ND is at play, I suspect most parents would be joining up dots through childhood.

You do know that he has a hearing impairment and that can reasonably explain being more "quirky" and overlapping into sensory and communication differences. The positive is that he should already be on the radar for school's support for individual needs and adjustments. The reality is that a diagnosis of a ND condition wouldn't change that approach to support.

With DS1 having diagnoses, there are times that I wonder about DS2 and ADHD. The reality is that I can't see a strong enough case at this present time to go down the referral route. He is diagnosed with dyslexia and that could explain some of the difficulties and traits he has. I'm still watching on that and at least know that school already recognises the need for some adjustments.

I can't say yay or nay, but the descriptions don't make me think there is an obvious need for referral in this case. However the impact of the DH's needs do need specialist support and that's the priority here.

He says he doesn’t do it at school because he doesn’t want to and would be embarrassed if the other kids saw him. Surely if this was true stimming, none of this would be possible?

Just to say, I have known autistic students to stop/mask their stimming at school, with the same reasoning. Their key adults have worked on acceptance and normalising of it, e.g. through story books, social stories, YouTube videos etc.

And amazingly all of them are on mumsnet!

OP, your child sounds like a normal kid. Lots of kids get excitable, talk to themselves, etc. I really don’t get this new trend of people wanting to label their children. Drives me insane.

OP, you really have to sit down with your OH and have a serious discussion with him. Do you think he will see a doctor about his obsessive nature? It’s in your whole family’s best interests for him to be fully aware of his behaviour.

I have a relative with health anxiety too so I feel for you

They are practically a recluse nowadays and obsessed with the idea that getting a cold will kill them even though they have had plenty of colds which never seem to affect them that much

If we do anything they dont like it's because we are trying to kill them from a heart attack by causing them stress

Sometimes I get a random phone call demanding I got for tests for a type of cancer theyve heard someone else has got, that I dont have symptoms for and Im selfish if I dont go to the doctors about it

However my multiple disabilities are ignored and underplayed because they don't actually want me to be "iller" than them

Meanwhile they wont actually go for medical treatment for their diagnosed health anxiety. For anything else, imagined or real yes, but this actual issue they have no

And I know its because mental health is complex and its not really their fault. But its still okay to have an outlet on an anonymous forum to talk about the impact on you without people jumping down your throat. Because living with someone with untreated mental health issues, who refuses to get them treated but expects you to go along with, and expend a lot of your time and energy on, the consequences of that untreated condition has an impact on you too

I'm wondering what your dh thinks next steps are then if school have no concerns? Does he know what is required to get a diagnosis?
Is a diagnosis what he wants? What does he think this will achieve?
I ask because my dp is a lot like this and hard facts from a professional won't cut it. He will decide he is right.

Does he want action from professionals or does he just want to go on about it all the time - because that's what's putting the strain on your relationship shop I imagine.

I agree. Why are school obsessed with him having different friends? He has the skill to build friends. Not everyone wants to be mr extroverted with 1000 friends.

Like PP have said You have a big DH problem. He diagnoses himself with all sorts of medical conditions via the internet. Now he's doing it with your son and you're validating your husband's health anxiety by doing exactly the same and asking internet forum users whether they think your son is autistic, even though you and your son's teacher felt he fine (BTW, he sounds like a delightful lad)

This won't stop once you've established that your son is not autistic. Your husband will start projecting all sorts of conditions onto your son. You need to make your husband get help, or you're both going to subject your son to all sorts of mental/medical tests and constant watchfulness and questions. This will blight his childhood and if you allow this to continue, you'll end up triggering a safe-guarding concern from your son's school or medical professionals.

I know you're trying to support your husband, but he is being selfish by using you as a substitute for a professional therapist and/or medication and allowing his phobia to affect his children.

Same.

And even if the child has anxiety - is it because of dad? I'm concerned the dad is obsessed with the thought of him being ill or different in any way and will manifest it.

What you look for you're sure to find...

There are two different things to address here. You have a big BIG DH problem. He needs to seek help for his obsessive thoughts processes and his anxiety. To be honest, I would be trying to get him assessed, because this was one of my biggest symptoms of ADHD. My brain couldn't stop, so I would just obsess and hyper focus, and become anxious to the point I lost friends and relationships. It took months of therapy to learn how to redirect obsessive thoughts and anxieties.

This brings me onto your son. I can't tell you if he is likely to be neurodivergent. But what I can tell you is that my daughter has ADHD and is awaiting an ASD assessment. Between the ages of 2 and 6, she was very much like this. But her school wouldn't couldn't see all the small pieces of the jigsaw, even though I could. My mum couldn't see it, and she has a job managing schools for children with ASD.

DD was actually very much like your DS until she got to year four and the social pressures and demands became too much for her to navigate. And then she regressed and now really struggles.

I'm not sure what the solution is but ASD and ADHD can both be inherited. So if your husband were to be neurodivergent, there would be a chance your DS has inherited it.

I may get a lot of hate for this but could you "compromise" with your DH? Could you tell your DH that ASD and ADHD can be inherited, and that his obsessive nature is a red flag, and agree that you will agree to DS being assessed on the condition that your DH has a full assessment with an NHS approved company and he himself is diagnosed with ASD or ADHD?
I'd also consider setting an agreement that if DH refuses assessment or doesn't have either condition, then he has to agree to drop the subject unless DS shows more obvious signs over time, and tell him he needs to seek therapy to overcome the obsessive thoughts and anxiety.

In all honesty, if your DH does have autism or ADHD then your son would benefit from an assessment and early intervention to ensure he has the support to continue thriving as he gets older and things get harder.

I may be totally wrong, but it seems like the best way to get DH to agree to getting help for himself.

This is my concern. When will this ever stop? Whatever the outcome in this instance, I can tell you that this won’t be the end of it. I hate the thought of putting DS or any of us, through unnecessary medical tests etc just to satisfy DH’s fixation.

I’m petrified that this will impact my boys in some way, even if we don’t pursue an autism diagnosis in this instance. They can already sense DH’s anxiety whenever he is around them, and while he is a great dad in so many ways, I feel so sad that time is flying by and DH cannot just enjoy DS for who he is

Exactly. If you look hard enough and find enough dots to connect, you can convince yourself of anything. That’s what I feel he does. Rather then just embracing and enjoying DS for who he is, instead he feels the need to attribute them to DS being autistic when in reality, there’s just as much chance that DS is just a wee bit different

I will caveat this with the fact that I am no expert but…
I am in agreement with you OP. The DSM V states that any condition listed within its pages is only a condition that warrants diagnoses if it is severely impacting on the sufferers life or those around them. We all find life hard to some degree - including children. Doesn’t mean we need to seek a diagnoses for it.
I read an interesting book called the DSM explained and it placed many disorders along a spectrum and as polar opposites to one another and said that we are all on that spectrum somewhere.
So, for example, they listed OCD as the exact opposite to ADHD. If you are bang in the middle of the two then you are perfectly balanced but most of us are towards one end or the other. Not enough for concern but we may be more driven to be in control and therefore closer to the OCD end of the spectrum, or we may hate routine for example and be closer to the ADHD end. If you are at the extreme of either end of the spectrum then you may well benefit from a diagnoses and treatment. It helped me to realise that all people are different and that doesn’t necessarily mean that you have a disorder of some kind.

Yes he obviously could end up presenting with traits as he gets older that would warrant further investigation but until that point I would leave him be.

@Cleggin I wonder if for arguments sake DS was autistic what next? There is very little additional support given you just get a list of books to read and waved on your way,getting additional therapies or interventions is a battlefield. What would your DH expect to happen? What would he move on to next?