For thinking that a child who is different isn’t necessarily neurodiverse

[Cleggin]

Hi just hoping for some perspective.

My DH has severe anxiety, specifically health anxiety, and a tendency to worry to the point of fixation about his own health and that of our kids. I can’t count on both hands how many things he’s diagnosed himself or our children with. The latest is an obsession that our DS is autistic or neurodiverse in some way. I couldn’t disagree more and think that while he has some funny little quirks, he’s essentially a happy and healthy 6 year old.

The facts:

DS is doing ok at school. He’s on track for most of the things academically. Bit behind with writing but not worryingly so

Happy and excited to do new things and go to new places. He isn’t upset by routine changes or transitions etc

Likes playing with friends, going to parties, going on holiday etc. Embraces new experiences

No sensory issues of note

Eats pretty much everything, not fussy

Kind and empathetic (most of the time)

Enjoys jokes and being the class clown

Doesn’t meltdown or tantrum to any major extent

Enjoys school

DH concerns;

He can be very excitable - doesn’t take much to fill his cup.

He has a habit of running and jumping about, sometimes waving his arms about and sometimes throwing himself on the couch. It’s sometimes accompanied by explosion noises etc. He does it a lot at home and I think he does it more when tired or overstimulated. DH thinks he’s stimming whereas I think he’s just expressing his enjoyment/happiness and it feels nice to do it. Possibly helping him to process whatever he’s thinking about at the time

Quite often chats away to himself, sometimes singing, sometimes reenacting something from his favourite show etc. Sometimes just repeating a new or interesting word. Sometimes just whispering nonsense

Likes to make up silly words and names

He has a few close friends and isn’t that interested in branching out or making new friends instead preferring to stick with those he already has. School have noted this independently of us. They haven’t said it’s a concern but they did say they might put them in different classes next year

Can sometimes be a bit withdrawn/unsociable with some kids, especially those who are a bit full on. He has a hearing loss so noisy kids can be a bit too much for him at times. Which makes me laugh as he is so noisy and excitable himself but doesn’t embrace it in other kids. But when he’s with his best friend, he’s the loudest and silliest of the lot. So I think it’s a confidence thing, particularly considering the hearing issue

Occasionally he appears not to want make eye contact when someone is up close. I don’t think he has a problem with eye contact at all and think it’s normal for a 6 year old who is being told off and told to look at the person telling him off not to want to do so. I’d say as a general rule he makes great eye contact, even with people he doesn’t know all that well and with adults and kids. Sometimes I think he feels a bit uncomfortable when someone is in his face and asking him questions and he sometimes zones out a bit but I think that’s totally normal. DH disagrees

Please can someone help. I feel like it’s destroying our marriage and it’s damaging his relationship with our DS. He seems unable to relax and enjoy spending time with him without analyzing every little thing he does and attributing it to a self diagnosis of autism. I can’t seem to get through to him. He wants us to push for some kind of referral whereas I feel that would set a hare running that is completely unnecessary and potentially damaging to the well being of our happy and healthy child.

im planning to share the answers from this thread with him in an effort to help him
see things more clearly and in the hope it might encourage him to seek help for his overwhelming anxiety.

Everything I’ve written has been seen and agreed by him (apart from obviously my slant on it).

Yes exactly. I’m not closed off to the idea that DS could be autistic (although I don’t think he is) but I am mentally and emotionally drained by the constant battle to get through to DH that he should seek help and his constant refusal to do so

Yes - I’m a qualified psychologist who commented and I noted this too from another commenter - very frustrating.

Your ds sounds like mine, aged 5. My ds also has some sensory issues around only wearing oversized clothes, and food (but has a medical history around food and allergies). I did have him assessed, a 2 hour set of tests with nhs, where they said that while he seems busy and sensory seeking (always moving, jumping, fidgeting), they feel he's mentally under stimulated (don't think gifted, but years ahead on numbers and problem solving). They said ultimately they think he's NT and would be very surprised to see us again. I feel he's an introvert as pp suggested for you, he likes who he likes. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm also anxious like your dh, which is why he was assessed. Ds has so many physical health issues though that I feel a need to be on constant alert with him. I don't feel that way about our very healthy dd aged 2. I can see where he's coming from with your ds, especially given the advice on here that anything sensory is ND. I do however take meds for anxiety/depression and make sure to meet my own needs.

It's awful to generalise, but lots of men seem in disbelief over mental health conditions. My dp didn't understand that they have physical impacts, that you can't just snap out of 'feeling blue' until he started having panic attacks in his 40s. Sounds like your dh needs some help.

DH just refuses to see that he has a problem, he has always been able to justify his concerns in his own mind but to anyone looking on, those justifications are bat shit. It’s not just me at the end of their tether. He’s lost friends, family are despairing of him. He copes well at work but I fear it’s only a matter of time before these feelings and thoughts intrude there too.

Sorry I’m not trying to misquote you. I was just interested to know what bits of what I’ve described about my DS you think may fit with autism?

I personally think lots of what I’ve described can be attributed to 1) his age 2) his personality and 3) his hearing loss.

Yes he could be described as a bit quirky at times. But give me a 6 year old who isn’t? I constantly see other kids doing funny little things, no one is suggesting they are autistic.

We spoke with the teacher at parents evening about his social skills/interactions and they aren’t concerned at this stage. He’s also had observations by the TOTD who noted no concerns and that he was interacting socially with other children and clearly enjoying school. Yes she wasn’t assessing him for signs of neurodiversity but her assessment did include how to intersects with peers etc and behaviour and no concerns noted. Happy to talk to them again but just concerned about setting a hare running.

I have sons and a husband on the spectrum. They don't have much in common with your son but ASD is infinitely variable. You don't mention for example a collection of South American wind instruments which we once had till they switched to a new interest! It is a spectrum after all and your son doesn't sound like he is far along it or maybe not on it all. Does it really matter though? My husband is retired but worked for decades in one of the hard sciences. (In some of the hard sciences being ASD is almost a given.) My eldest isn't far off qualifying as a doctor. My youngest has just graduated and is job hunting and learning to drive. They are not sad loners. If I was the sort to diagnose over the internet I'd be wondering a bit about whether your husband was on the spectrum. I'd be quite interested in his family history.

Yes, I realise the stats but I'm saying "in reality". As in there have always been neurodiverse people, many who have left a massive imprint on the world, inventors, engineers, artists, composers etc etc. Now there are lots of autistic children (maybe born to undiagnosed parents). The digital age selects these traits. There is a higher incidence of autism in Silicon Valley due to lots of high achieving autistic people excelling in the same sphere, working & living together, making relationships. I realise there are other ND profiles but at the moment autism seems to be a hot topic whilst ADHD is a preferred diagnosis. If only the diagnostic criteria was revised as "spectrum" doesn't really cover the extremes. I think NT was seen as the typical norm in the 19th & 20th century but not now. I know that's not reflected in diagnoses but it's clear when you know a lot about these conditions just how common they are.

No obvious or diagnosed mental health conditions or neurodiversity as far as I know in his family although one of my parents does have mental health issues.

DS likes lego, Spider-Man, cars, planes, trains, tractors - all pretty typical interests for his age and none of those interests are ever taken to what I would consider an intense or concerning level.

He’s bright but not gifted as far as I can tell. He is also lazy and will do the bare minimum to get by, which is why I think his writing is a bit behind as he just can’t be arsed with it. Never been that interested in writing, colouring or craft.

His language is great and no problems communicating or understanding, despite hearing issues

@GreyTonkinese sounds like autism has been a blessing in your family, it’s wonderful to hear that your children and husband are all living happy and fulfilling lives

no problem! I just didn’t want you to think I had suggested red flags because there wasn’t from what you said - i had said some things you described like the repetitive movement when excited/sticking to own peer group could be things you would see in child with asd - but equally you see them in lots of neurotypical children too. No one will or should exclude or dx on the basis of short description online. You’ve also given more info in the meantime to demonstrate the pattern of worries from your DH which indicates you may be the one seeing the situation more clearly. If two parents have very different opinions I would always suggest exploring but of course wouldn’t recommend doing so repeatedly due to parental anxiety. I guess I would see that you have nothing to lose if you and DH ask teacher a few questions/explore with appropriate professional (little one doesn’t have to be there for initial consult) and it may be a springboard to your husband accepting he actually needs some support with anxiety/or indeed maybe they’ll agree with him. On the basis of what you describe I wouldn’t get ax, but if my DH was very concerned, I would explore a bit further rather than shutting down. I’d also only seek ax if you felt it was needed re support, rather than label for labels sake - which might be a message DH needs.

As the parent of a higher needs adult son with ASD I can see from what you describe that there are a few traits that your son has that could be ASD. However it could equally be linked to hearing loss and excitability.

In essence, there seems little here to establish huge concern. In other words if it is if ASD as yet your son is functioning in school so it probably would be at the milder end and there is not that much to be done about it.

By school age people with more significant ASD which causes more issues are already being noticed by the SEN team if not beforehand at nursery.

The reason for this is because quite frankly, the school can’t cope with unsupported SEN kids as the kid will be needing more support than a teacher can give and the child will have dominated the time of any LSA in class.

I’m not saying it can’t be ASD but it would be at the milder end so not really so much to worry about.

The DSM 5! Is really brief - it’s the actual living with someone with ASD that really puts the flesh on the bones.

I think the 3 things are

1 impaired communication
2 repetitive behaviours
3 Rigid thinking.

People can get diagnosed but for kids with say milder ASD there won’t be much in the way of any additional support at school unless they can piggy back onto someone’s support with a funded EHCP. Even at the higher end it’s a fight for SALT/ OT etc

my son is an example of someone with moderate ASD with average intelligence but the ASD is life impacting. He’s at life skills now aged 20 but will go to university soon.

His stimming was linked to SPD and the inability to cope with or deal with too much sensory input. Usually there is a source of input eg television too noisy or exciting - my son would bounce on the spot - flap and grunt. There was no question about is this a stim - it looked different and odd. He would also twirl on the spot - in his own World. This behaviour would carry on for periods of half an hour or an hour or more. It was hugely hugely repetitive and not a reaction to excitement. He would come out of school and need to bounce and grunt for an hour or so a day. In school he would move back and forward when sitting on the ground. In PE he would stand there and flap like a bird - frankly it looks different. There would also be toe walking etc People could see it and notice he was different. Other stims might be staring at fingers or hair pulling. Milder ASD adults hide their stims but kids maybe not so much.

SPD - you can spot the ASD kid they have the headphones on for a reason - literally someone whose kid has ASD will immediately tell you where the speakers are in a restaurant
or cafe. Museum vists / swimming lesson are all a nightmare. You might be getting some real indicators from any museum, gym, swimming lesson etc setting.

also there is an ASD mannerism walk - hard to describe but it’s there - again milder maybe not so much.

Friends - my son had one friend who may also have been slightly Atypical - kids senses he was different so there were no groups or party invites at all. He was distinctly socially isolated. By aged 8 he needed support in the playground.

repeating words - it depends how it’s done - again it’s the intensity of it eg my son asked how my day was every day some 50 times on the walk home. There was no doubting he had a ND disorder of some sort.

Communication - can your son hold a back and forth conversation or does he dominate the conversation to a topic. For example my son would talk about the Lost City of Atlantis for the entire walk home. Whatever topic introduced by the adult he would get it back to the Lost City.

SALT do assessments as part of the MDT and it’s the inability to to and fro, the inability to maintain conversation eg talking goby gook - I really could not have a conversation with my son when younger and even now it’s conversing on his terms. ( despite therapy) This is a real key for ASD

The whole eye contact is a bit of a red herring I think.

It’s the language issues eg - complete inability to understand things like pull your socks up, take a page, pull yourself together. This one completely scared my son ‘straighten yourselves out’ he thought that secondary school wanted him to unravel his entire body including his intestines - he was petrified. This lack of ability to cope with language or literal language only is really obvious.

Completely doubting people’s intentions or misunderstanding…. This is hugely exhausting - why does someone want his name, why does passport control need his passport, why does he have to say where he lives. They can’t read faces and lack the ability to work on instincts so are really scared. As a consequence they can’t recognise the overtures of friendship. They are lonely but there is a huge chasm there.

OT might form part of the assessment - ASD is linked to hypotonia and hyper mobility etc - that also links into the SPD as they are not getting the correct sensory input into the brain due tk the low muscle tone.

Melt Downs or shut downs - melt downs are scary and there is no not noticing them. The chins has no control and that distinguishes it from hysterics - also it’s caused by a rule of their World being broken eg we failed to get tickets beforehand for an attraction and my son was on the floor scared we had broken a rule. The school has a change of teacher- it’s all wrong - melt down. The school had home clothes day - flipping nightmare - meltdown.
really by now if there was the higher end ASD at school there would be some major indications eg at end of term, when there is a change of teacher, home clothes days , book days, fancy costume days , Christmas time at school. - big no no , sports day major freak out. etc etc even a new text book or change of lessons - the list is endless but I would say that school would notice and be asking for some assessments.

shut downs - the worst thing - it’s when the person with ASD just stops interacting with the world and can turn into a gargoyle grimacing and not able to move or absorb any information. There is no mistaking when it happens as it’s a serious situation because failing to deal with it can prolong it and turn it into a medical crisis.
That would be a phone call from school.

Did he have speech delay?
What minor sensory issues does he have?

Ime teachers wont suggest anything or even support diagnosis unless its completely typical asd.
My dd was referred by me. No comments about asd ever from school.
But- she got excluded from an activity after an incident of noise sensitivity and re behaviour issues.
School had raised behaviour issues from reception as did nursery but it was all 'naughtiness' and defiance. There was never any support at breaks or friendshios despite clear issues.
Yet now at secondary other kids are saying to her she is autistic!
So i conclude our specific primary and senco were shit. They only sent her to other classes and never could say what happened before issues.

Its around y3 where dc stop being able to keep up with friendships
And dc only ever had one invite to parties yearly from that point.
Dc2 also likely asd has more friends but notably still no playdates or weekend meetups. And even knowong about dc1 they think dc2 is fine. Despite sensory issues at home and huge meltdowns.
Bear in mind teachers dont supervise play so dont realise dynamics.

To be honest, depending on where you live, your husbands opinion on this might be irrelevant. Where I am, we couldn’t even get our children assessed until we had corroborating evidence from the school. That took until year 4 for my son, and never happened for my daughter (until she started secondary school and fell apart - then the GP referred her directly). If he’s not struggling at school, an assessment might not be on the cards, no matter what he thinks about it.

To answer your title: "different" suggests "not like the norm" which does seem quite reasonable to then describe as "divergent". It isn't a stigma, it is a descriptor. But! ND doesn't have to mean autistic or having ADHD.

To answer your actual post, your son may or may not turn out to be ND, but your husband might want to consider talking to a doctor about himself...
Also, it is very common for autistic boys to only start standing out from their peers at around the start of KS2, and if you go to the GP to ask for an assessment the waiting list is several years long - if you asked for him to be seen now then he won't get assessed until he is several years older and either he might actually benefit from a diagnosis at that point (if he is starting to struggle) or he will continue to be entirely NT and won't get diagnosed, in which case it puts it to bed. Assessment is actually assessment, it isn't 'getting to the front of the queue to collect a diagnosis'.

@Noras @GelbertG sorry to clump answers together but to try and answer specifics:

Doesn’t appear bothered by loud background music/swimming lesson acoustics apart from the fact that he may struggle a bit more to hear. Certainly doesn’t find it distressing

Think his walk is normal- had no idea there was a autistic walk? Sometimes hops and skips along but just put this down to high energy levels

We have lovely back and forth conversations and I don’t think he tried to dominate conversations beyond the extent that he may lose interest in the conversation if what I’m talking about doesn’t interest him.

Slight speech delay but nothing significant and attributed to his hearing loss. Late to point too but not hugely. Once speech started (around 2 and a bit, it progressed very quickly to clear sentences). No delay in receptive language

Not really repetitive overall but he will occasionally will say a word again under his breath (whether it be something he’s said or someone else - can be both) but more often he’s singing or making up a silly rhyme or thinking out loud about something, usually a tv show or something interesting that’s happened that day. He doesn’t use repetative language as a form of communication or with any communicative intent as far as I can see, just for his own enjoyment

I don’t think I’d describe him as literal with language, certainly not beyond what I’d expect at his age. He understands that some sayings have more than one meaning but I have had to explain the odd saying on occasion but he’s fine once he understands the context. He certainly doesn’t get worked up by it. Takes most things he’s told/hears at face value. Doesn’t question everything asked of him, but he definitely does if it’s something he doesn’t want to do.

No sensory issues. Fine with food, textures, colours, noise, lights etc. No repetative behaviours apart from the running/jumping and occasionally waving his arms/making exploding noises thing he does. I talk to him while he’s doing it sometimes, he’s not doing it and tuning out to the world around him, he isn’t distressed or worried - he just says I like doing it when I ask him why

Doesn’t have meltdowns or shutdowns. Occasional flash of temper if he doesn’t get what he wants but usually worse when tired and snaps out of it very quickly

Some of what you have describes does sound like my autistic DD at that age but her autism wasn't an issue at that age, it became troublesome on the move to Secondary like many children.

Those quirky traits have to cause trouble with day to day life to get an autism diagnosis so at the moment they are just quirks, if they become troublesome then that's when you go for an assessment until then he's a lovely,lively boy (and he'll still be a lovely, lively boy with autism if he got a diagnosis)

Your DH needs to get help with this anxiety and self diagnosing habit that's a far more concerning issue.

The autism walk - frequently people with autism 'T-Rex' their arm so the are bent at the elbow. I had to teach teen DD how to swing her arms as she couldn't work out how to do it, very funny considering she's exceptional in academic subjects.

In my recent experience I do think any person or kid who is a little different or out of the ordinary people's first instinct is to label them "on the spectrum" or whatever. It's pretty tiresome and lumps people into boxes without considering many of these people are just individuals with different habits, preferences and so on. I'm not saying it's not helpful to get a diagnosis if you suspect it but also so many people in our society love to throw around the "on the spectrum" so loosely and easily. He sounds like a normal kid to me but keep an eye on it. If he's doing well at school, making friends and not struggling then no need - if that changes or he starts being anxious or whatever then by all means look into it. Also don't necessarily expect school to be supportive or helpful - in my personal experience some teachers are pretty clueless on this kind of stuff.

DH just refuses to see that he has a problem, he has always been able to justify his concerns in his own mind but to anyone looking on, those justifications are bat shit. It’s not just me at the end of their tether. He’s lost friends, family are despairing of him

You seem to see this particular issue as tipping the balance. I honestly don't think you should wait for what we think about your son (for the record, I think he's fine*). Clearly you already know that you can't continue to live with this and the effect of this obsessive thinking on your family.

If I was a betting person I'd say that your DH has intrusive thoughts that might well be associated with OCD. In your place, having put up with all much as you have, I'd be telling him that he either gets help or your marriage is over.

*I taught autistic children in specialised settings for nearly 40 years.

Honestly OP I think better to speak to the school than people on here. Mumsnet loves diagnosing Autism!!
Speak to people who actually know your son. Ask the school for a checklist of autistic traits (they can ask their educational psychologist for one if they don’t have one) and go through it with class teacher, SENCO and you DH. Remember that something DH sees as a trait may be normalised by the teacher as something they see all the time with 6 year olds. So this could be helpful for your DH to feel reassured.

Could be a NT kid. There's lots you said that could be autism. My 8 yo autistic child is very similar and I don't think I would have picked it up had myself and her brother not also been autistic. My experience is schools don't see it if the child is well behaved then the child struggles once at senior school.

Your oh is as much a parent as you and I think his views are just as valid. Ask for your child to be referred for assessment. They won't diagnose if he's not so you have nothing to loose. It's years long waiting list you will kick yourself if in a couple years you yourself start to see signs and at that point you have to start at the bottom of a 3 year waiting list

Is it worth asking the school senco to observe him to see if any concerns. If it's a no you have your answer. There's also an online evaluation tool called mchatr you could try.

Yes it’s more just to get a consensus of opinion as to whether this is just the latest obsession of my husband or something that warrants further investigation. I have spoken to School and will do so again. They haven’t raised any concerns beyond what I noted in my OP but I haven’t specifically asked them re autism etc. They weren’t noting a concern anyway, more an observation. Other health professionals have also not noted any concern, and that included our lovely TotD who we’ve seen since DS was a baby and also the consultant paediatrician who we’ve seen routinely over the years as parents of a child that is hoh. DH did mention to her at our last appointment that he was concerned by the ‘stimming’ that DS does but paediatrician didn’t seem concerned and just said that unless it was something that significantly impacted or impaired his life, we shouldn’t worry and besides nothing would be done in terms of an assessment anyway unless there were other more obvious issues. For me, that was the end of it but for DH, the fact that he didn’t say ‘he definitely isn’t autistic’ means there’s a good chance he definitely is 🤦‍♀️🤯

That isn’t correct, and neurodivergent doesn’t equal autistic

Yes I think I will do that. I’m just concerned about putting question mark over DS when I truly don’t feel he warrants one. I know DH’s opinion is valid but unless you’ve experienced living with someone with this level of health anxiety, it’s hard to give it headspace as it’s the latest in a long line of things. This one feels like the final straw as I can’t comprehend wanting to put DS and our family through what could be years of waiting and multiple assessments just to satisfy and resolve his anxiety when he won’t accept or seek help himself

OP, nobody here can tell you whether or not your dc is autistic. He may be, and your dh may be too… or he may not be, and your dh may not be either, it may be anxiety on your DH’s part.

You do sound a bit dismissive of your dh. I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of neurodivergence in either of them but nobody here can tell you whether that’s the case. I do think perhaps you should open your mind and actually keep the possibility in your mind that your dh might have a valid perspective.