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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

We should be moving towards a secular country.

230 replies

titbumwillypoo · 21/04/2024 09:56

In the last census a third of the country identified as having no religion. This is a trend that is likely to increase in the future. I believe we should be moving towards having a complete separation of Church and state.

  1. Removal of any religious leaders from the House of Lords. Believing in an invisible man is no qualification for having influence on the laws of our country.
  2. Removal of charity status for all religions. Other entertainment venues don't get charity status, why should they? If they have a good business model for their club then the membership should be enough.
  3. Removal of Faith schools. We don't let children drink or smoke or drive cars until they are mature enough to make that choice for themselves so why is it ok to allow them to be indoctrinated into these cults from such a young age?
  4. Ban children from organised worship - See point 3
  5. Ban religious symbols and dress from our streets. We don't allow nudists to wander around our city centres expressing their beliefs because it can cause offence so why do religions get to do it? What people do in their own home is up to them but publicly displaying your gang colours is divisive to a wider society. AIBU - Religion has a place in society AINBU - Religion is on the out and the faster it's gone the better.
OP posts:
RandomButtons · 21/04/2024 16:25

You sound like you’d fit in in North Korea OP.

No free thinking allowed there.

dapsnotplimsolls · 21/04/2024 16:27

Cakeandcardio · 21/04/2024 16:21

I've noticed that non-religious folk always want non-faith schools. Even although they have no idea about them 😅

I used to work in one.

Vod · 21/04/2024 16:30

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/04/2024 14:09

I agree with separating church and state, most especially in education - state funded religious schools are just plain wrong

So do I, @Mischance, but sooner or later someone will point out that the churches originally owned the buildings and that they'd have to be bought back if the link was to severed

Except it doesn't work, not least because of all the ££££ the state's provided in maintenance over the years, to say nothing of the "advertising" aspect the churches have enjoyed

Value the buildings, adjust for all the above, and it would probably be found that churches actually owed the state a large wodge of money - which they could well afford to pay

Adjust the value of the buildings for advertising? What on earth do you think the legal framework is for that?

Ponderingwindow · 21/04/2024 16:37

I do think religious clothing, symbols, and practices should be treated neutrally. They should not be protected or favored any more than any other personal choices. That means people should be allowed to wear what they want. If head coverings are allowed for some, then head coverings are allowed for all. If jewelry is allowed for some, then jewelry is allowed for all. Sometimes restrictions should be allowed for safety or hygiene and religion should not be a reason for an exception.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/04/2024 16:38

Vod · 21/04/2024 16:30

Adjust the value of the buildings for advertising? What on earth do you think the legal framework is for that?

I'm not a lawyer, but if they tried it I guess we'd find out

The larger point though is that it's all very well to say that the churches own the sites and they'd have to be bought, but it's not quite as simple as that considering the relatives spends by different parties over the decades

Sirzy · 21/04/2024 16:41

Cakeandcardio · 21/04/2024 16:21

I've noticed that non-religious folk always want non-faith schools. Even although they have no idea about them 😅

I’m Christian, I still don’t like the idea of faith schools (although I get the logistics of why we can’t just get rid)

i chose to send DS to a community school which isn’t based on any faith. It’s a good job I did as by the age of 8 he had made the decision that he didn’t believe in any religion and at 14 still stands by that - his free choice.

Vod · 21/04/2024 16:42

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/04/2024 16:38

I'm not a lawyer, but if they tried it I guess we'd find out

The larger point though is that it's all very well to say that the churches own the sites and they'd have to be bought, but it's not quite as simple as that considering the relatives spends by different parties over the decades

The larger point is that if you're going to say things could be factored into the valuations, it shouldn't consist of deductions you've pulled out of your arse.

thermostatical · 21/04/2024 16:52

If you remove charity status from religions you'll pretty much overnight see the collapse of a massive amount of charities which do incredible good for people who are hungry, homeless or in trouble in some way. Trussell Trust who run majority of food banks - Christian charity. Methodist, C o E, Baptist, Pentecostals - all of them pick up where the welfare state fails with children's homes, community larders, clothes banks, overseas aid. And that's just the Christians before you even look at what Sikhs and the Jewish community do and on and on. Stop their charity status and they immediately lose out on gift aid - many would totally collapse.

As for the other points...I agree with you about the separation between church and state and yes, bishops should not be in the HOL. On that we agree. As for faith schools, if you don't like them, don't send your child to one. Plenty of people do want them though and no one is forcing a child to obey a religion.

Finally, you want a country where people are not allowed to wear crosses or yarmulkes or hijabs in public? You realise that's what the far right does?

Denying other people the right to practise their sincerely held beliefs just because you don't like them, just sounds kinda intolerant and bigoted

Flickersy · 21/04/2024 16:55

We don't allow nudists to wander around our city centres

Just a point - there's no actual law banning anyone being naked in public, so no we don't. In theory you could go to the shops in the nude, although admittedly it would be a bit chilly.

You can get arrested for indecent exposure where you have the intent to cause alarm and distress, but the simple virtue of being naked because you're a nudist wouldn't meet that test.

NeverEnoughPants · 21/04/2024 16:59

Op, had your post been more reasonable, I would have agreed with you.

But it isn't. So I can't.

GridlockedKey · 21/04/2024 17:01

YANBU for 1,2 and 3 but your other points are not ok.

There should be zero link between any religion and the state/ government. All schools should be secular. Even private schools. There should also be no links with the Royal family and the state/government. The fact that King Charles is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England is awful.

LoobyDop · 21/04/2024 17:02

I mostly agree with you. Particularly where education is concerned- I think that education and religion are opposite ends of a spectrum and fundamentally incompatible.

But. The evidence is pretty clear that as a society we are facing a crisis of mental ill health. And I’m increasingly convinced that a big factor in this (along with social media) is the death of community and moral authority. And whether you believe in it or not, that is provided by organised religion. So I don’t know, I think we might have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

RarePeer · 21/04/2024 17:03

Empty vessels make most noise

thermostatical · 21/04/2024 17:07

titbumwillypoo · 21/04/2024 12:28

Let's address point 4. At the minute it's not illegal to smack your child in England and Northern Ireland but it is in Scotland and Wales. Many people would argue that hitting a child is abuse and I would agree with them that it has no place in modern society. I see the brainwashing of children into a faith as an equal form of abuse which also has a long lasting detrimental effect on them.
Also some religions are able to completely disregard laws on equality. Is it right that they can discriminate against women and LGB people in their practises? If they want to be a private members club that sets it's own rules that's fine by me but that means they also lose out on the benefits they get from society.

Out of interest, how many children from religious homes have you surveyed as adults, to find out what sort of detrimental effects it had on them? Can you point to a source that proves this please other than your own thoughts/beliefs?

I grew up in a Christian home and I'm a Christian today as are a lot of people in my wider circle. We're tolerant, accepting, not trying to force anyone to see the world 'our way' and we just get on with our lives, bolstered by a deep faith and belief that's beyond what can be seen. How does that hurt you? It doesn't really, does it?

Hartley99 · 21/04/2024 17:33

I’m 100% against faith schools. I’d also like RE replaced with moral philosophy. Instead of teaching Bronze Age myths, we should be passing on the works of Dickens, Bertrand Russell, Gandhi, Mark Twain, etc. There is more moral beauty in a Dickens novel than in the whole of the Bible. In fact, there is more moral beauty in P. G. Wodehouse. And I don’t say that lightly. The warm, kind, forgiving, all-embracing humour of Wodehouse is vastly more moral than the Old Testament, with its slavery and genocide.

I used to think religion was on its last legs in the U.K. I’m not so sure now. Many of the churches near me are full of African immigrants, and Africa has the highest birth rate in the world. In fact, their birth rate is so high the African population is going to double. Europe, on the other hand, has a very low birth rate. Mass immigration from Africa and the Middle East could lead to a religious revival in Europe. On top of that, highly educated people tend to be the least religious, but they also have fewer children.

I should think both the Catholic Church and Islam dread the modernisation of Africa. Imagine a continent in which women have control over their own bodies! God forbid. Then they might only have one or two kids. That would mean they’d have the time and money to educate themselves and their children, which would mean they’d start thinking for themselves. Then what would happen? No, no, much better to keep African women poor and ignorant and constantly pregnant.

passtheajax · 21/04/2024 17:44

What rabid secularism has given the world:

Hard core violent pornography.
Men in gimp suits/fetish gear wandering the streets and women's spaces.
Kids on the internet accessing violence and porn and attacking their parents and teachers.
Modern political parties who promote greed, cruelty and neglect of the poor and disabled.
The celebration of narcissism and self - Me before anyone and anything else.
Communism - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. Millions murdered for their cause.
Murderous dictators.
Contempt towards others and their property - yobs running the streets attacking the elderly etc.
The farce of the trans debacle which includes harming the health, wellbeing and lifespan of vulnerable youngsters.
The 'anything goes' attitude towards sex and fidelity. Why do people complain their husband or wife has affairs? It's de rigueur now don't you know?
Cruel and callous behaviour towards others.

Of course these things went on before the expulsion of Christianity from the lives of individuals, but you have to admit that the wheels have come off somewhat now and even the Patron Saint of Atheists, Richard Dawkins has written about what Christianity gives to individuals and society in that it can provide a conscience to those who may be lacking in that area. Also the idea that something is monitoring you 24/7 can have a big moderating effect on a person's behaviour.

pointythings · 21/04/2024 17:49

@passtheajax what a simplistic list of nonsense. The communism/secularism fallacy has been done to death.

Religious people commit plenty of crimes.

Nobody wants anything 'rabid' - that isn't even a quality strawman.

Democratic secular states - that is, those where laws are made on secular rather than religious principles - have a good record for tolerance and equality on the whole.

We can all see what militant Christianity does for people in places like the US and Uganda.

What we need is moderate thinking and dialogue, which includes religious tolerance and the acceptance of all religions and none, and which excludes militant everything.

The wheels were definitely rolling in all directions during, for example, the Inquisition.

Noicant · 21/04/2024 17:52

I could get behind 1-3

passtheajax · 21/04/2024 17:54

pointythings · 21/04/2024 17:49

@passtheajax what a simplistic list of nonsense. The communism/secularism fallacy has been done to death.

Religious people commit plenty of crimes.

Nobody wants anything 'rabid' - that isn't even a quality strawman.

Democratic secular states - that is, those where laws are made on secular rather than religious principles - have a good record for tolerance and equality on the whole.

We can all see what militant Christianity does for people in places like the US and Uganda.

What we need is moderate thinking and dialogue, which includes religious tolerance and the acceptance of all religions and none, and which excludes militant everything.

The wheels were definitely rolling in all directions during, for example, the Inquisition.

Stalin was a fallacy? Interesting.

Regardless of what individual churches have done, they do not represent Christianity. Neither does the RC church with its inquisition. The RC church has done more damage to Christianity than any number of secularists. I really wish people knew what Christianity was, but they don't, because they don't practise it.

MsLuxLisbon · 21/04/2024 17:54

Motheranddaughter · 21/04/2024 10:03

I think we will remain a Christian country for some time to come

I don't agree with the OP, but we are not really a Christian country at all IMO. We are secular slash multifaith.

JudgeJ · 21/04/2024 17:56

OhHelloMiss · 21/04/2024 10:02

So I would not be allowed to wear my gold cross round my neck when nipping to Tesco!?

What would happen to me if I dared?

Would this draconian suggestion include all indications of all religions or just a particular religion?

quizzys · 21/04/2024 18:04

France seems to manage its secular State fine.

As a near neighbour maybe have a look how it works there.

Gwenhwyfar · 21/04/2024 18:05

I'm a Christian, but I have some sympathy with points 1 and 3.
Point 1 is actually unfair on many Christians too because we're not all Anglicans.

pointythings · 21/04/2024 18:27

passtheajax · 21/04/2024 17:54

Stalin was a fallacy? Interesting.

Regardless of what individual churches have done, they do not represent Christianity. Neither does the RC church with its inquisition. The RC church has done more damage to Christianity than any number of secularists. I really wish people knew what Christianity was, but they don't, because they don't practise it.

I'm talking about the Atheist Atrocities Fallacy. Maybe read about it. https://areomagazine.com/2017/02/17/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-and-pol-pot/

The Atheist Atrocities Fallacy - Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot - Areo

Religious apologists, particularly those of the Christian variety, are big fans of what I have dubbed, the atheist atrocities fallacy. Christians commonly employ this fallacy to shield their egos from the harsh reality…View Post

https://areomagazine.com/2017/02/17/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-and-pol-pot

pointythings · 21/04/2024 18:29

@passtheajax I also have no problem with Christianity per se. I have friends of all faiths and none. But no nation should be run solely by religious principles - the examples are among us today and should be a salutary lesson to us all.

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