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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

We should be moving towards a secular country.

230 replies

titbumwillypoo · 21/04/2024 09:56

In the last census a third of the country identified as having no religion. This is a trend that is likely to increase in the future. I believe we should be moving towards having a complete separation of Church and state.

  1. Removal of any religious leaders from the House of Lords. Believing in an invisible man is no qualification for having influence on the laws of our country.
  2. Removal of charity status for all religions. Other entertainment venues don't get charity status, why should they? If they have a good business model for their club then the membership should be enough.
  3. Removal of Faith schools. We don't let children drink or smoke or drive cars until they are mature enough to make that choice for themselves so why is it ok to allow them to be indoctrinated into these cults from such a young age?
  4. Ban children from organised worship - See point 3
  5. Ban religious symbols and dress from our streets. We don't allow nudists to wander around our city centres expressing their beliefs because it can cause offence so why do religions get to do it? What people do in their own home is up to them but publicly displaying your gang colours is divisive to a wider society. AIBU - Religion has a place in society AINBU - Religion is on the out and the faster it's gone the better.
OP posts:
jackstini · 21/04/2024 14:46

Never going to happen

  1. Removal of any religious leaders from the House of Lords. Believing in an invisible man is no qualification for having influence on the laws of our country. You would have to change how the House of Lords works completely (not necessarily a bad thing) but I believe the people looking into our laws should represent a cross section of us, so as the majority of people do have a faith, you need to include some people of religion
  2. Removal of charity status for all religions. Other entertainment venues don't get charity status, why should they? If they have a good business model for their club then the membership should be enough. Calling places of worship entertainment venues is extremely rude. Most places of worship do a lot of charitable works, they are not cinemas and nightclubs!
  3. Removal of Faith schools. We don't let children drink or smoke or drive cars until they are mature enough to make that choice for themselves so why is it ok to allow them to be indoctrinated into these cults from such a young age? Where on earth do you plan to find the money to buy all of the church owned school buildings?! Only a tiny part of faith schools is focussed specifically on religion, they still have to follow the general curriculum. If you want children to make informed decisions about their religion, they need to know, experience and understand it
  4. Ban children from organised worship - See point 3. What are the majority of people who attend a place of worship supposed to do with their children during that time?! I do see the value of 'takes a village to raise a child' and my children loved having a 'second family' to be a part of. Taking part in services was a huge confidence booster too. Also see point above about informed decisions
  5. Ban religious symbols and dress from our streets. We don't allow nudists to wander around our city centres expressing their beliefs because it can cause offence so why do religions get to do it? What people do in their own home is up to them but publicly displaying your gang colours is divisive to a wider society. That's like taking away freedom of speech, ridiculously controlling. Someone wearing a cross, hijab, turban etc. should not cause anyone offence

In general YABU
You have chosen only to look at the negative connotations and none of the positive (although maybe you were playing devils advocate on purpose!)

Whatifthehokeycokey · 21/04/2024 14:50

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/04/2024 14:45

I mean, they're the Church's schools. The Cof E owns the land, in the case of aided schools. Are you envisaging seizing them in the style of some kind of communist coup? You could argue that the government needs to stop funding them, which is a valid argument, but they'll need to buy their own land and build new schools

I just knew someone would be along with this one, Whatifthehokeycokey, and suggested an answer a couple of posts ago

Nobody's advocating some sort of "coup" - a settlement would be more appropriate - but as explained it may well be a case of be careful what you wish for

Nobody's advocating some sort of "coup"

I'm not sure about that- OP's views seem fairly extreme! I'd be happy with a system more like in the US and Australia where religious schools are private, but much more affordable than secular private schools, say £5000 per year. I'd be very happy to pay for my child to have a private religious education.

BluntPoet · 21/04/2024 14:50

I was born in a country like this.

It was called USSR.

Compulsory secular paradise for all.

Didn’t stop our government from supporting Chomeini in Iran while drowning and beating priests to death at home.

OneTC · 21/04/2024 14:54

Compulsory secular paradise

🫡

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/04/2024 14:54

Since the topic's about moving to a secular society and the subject's turned to money, we could also look at the Places of Worship Fund, whereby they've received £346 million since 2010 in "grants towards the VAT incurred on eligible costs, such as works to the roofs, masonry and monuments"

I'd ask why, considering the wealth a lot of these organisations already hold, but suspect the answer will boil down to lobbying ability

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/nearly-5000-churches-across-the-united-kingdom-benefit-from-42-million-conservation-fund#:~:text=Since%202010%2C%20the%20Places%20of,monuments%20integral%20to%20the%20buildings.

Nearly 5,000 churches across the United Kingdom benefit from £42 million conservation fund

Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme supporting the protection of religious buildings representing all faiths and denominations, benefiting local communities

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/nearly-5000-churches-across-the-united-kingdom-benefit-from-42-million-conservation-fund#:~:text=Since%202010%2C%20the%20Places%20of,monuments%20integral%20to%20the%20buildings.

BluntPoet · 21/04/2024 14:54

passtheajax · 21/04/2024 10:34

I think when people say "ban religion" they mean "ban Christianity" don't they? They'd probably be happy to imprison Christ if he returned.

Our fair, tolerant and just society has been built on what Christianity gave to us when it first arrived on our shores. And before anyone brings up the evils of the RC church, we didn't start off by being RC, the ancient Church was not RC and RC doesn't represent Christianity.

Fill your boots and get rid of it though if that's what makes you happy.

Then see what replaces it. That's already starting to make the population cry into their milk.

Amen.

Many people are enraged when told that ideas like compassion for the weak and siding with the victims are of Christian origin and don’t really exist anywhere else apart from the West. Christianity is pretty much the only religion that says turn the other cheek and that it’s better to be oppressed than be the oppressor.

And yet those who see themselves as secular and rational (and therefore superior) pursue other agendas with ferocity worthy of religious neophytes.

LordPercyPercy · 21/04/2024 14:56

People need religion, if you remove the traditional Judeo-Christian ones something else just comes along to fill the void. See current US-originated leftwing progressive thinking for an example.

Proudtobeanortherner · 21/04/2024 14:59

but that would mean that I am forced to follow your “faith” so isn’t that also wrong if you follow your own logic? The intrinsic
moral values of this country stem from the original Ten Commandments (amongst others); society is unravelling because they are no longer drummed into people from a young age which means more and
more people are living in the “me, me, me world where you can do what you want and take what you want. Your plan will end in anarchy IMHO. What we should have is free and open debate and members of ALL faiths in the House of Lords alongside non-believers but only those with the country at the heart of what they do. Would you get rid of those rewarded with their seat by political leaders as well?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/04/2024 15:01

Nobody's advocating some sort of "coup"

I'm not sure about that- OP's views seem fairly extreme! ...

It's a fair point, Whatifthehokeycokey, and your own preference is nearer my own except that I wouldn't want my DS anywhere near a private religious school

Even in OP's scenario, though, within current law we couldn't have "the state" barrelling in to seize and shut things down wholesale, so at least we have the comfort of knowing any measures would have to be done by due process

It's just a pity to some of us that these processes are so open to abuse by special interest pleading

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/04/2024 15:06

Christianity is pretty much the only religion that says turn the other cheek and that it’s better to be oppressed than be the oppressor

Please say you're joking, BluntPoet?

If not you might want to look a little further into that one ...

BluntPoet · 21/04/2024 15:11

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/04/2024 15:06

Christianity is pretty much the only religion that says turn the other cheek and that it’s better to be oppressed than be the oppressor

Please say you're joking, BluntPoet?

If not you might want to look a little further into that one ...

No, not joking at all.

Perhaps you’re the one who should look into this more.

I recommend Dominion by Tom Holland to start with.

titbumwillypoo · 21/04/2024 15:12

LordPercyPercy · Today 14:56
People need religion, if you remove the traditional Judeo-Christian ones something else just comes along to fill the void. See current US-originated leftwing progressive thinking for an example.
You're holding up a country that has in parts banned abortions to victims of rape in the name of Christian values?

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/04/2024 15:19

I recommend Dominion by Tom Holland to start with

I've read it, BluntPoet ... some interesting hypotheses, but wholly blinkered around the teachings of some of the much older religions which came before Christianity and continue to this day

Alittlefrustrated · 21/04/2024 15:20

Sirzy · 21/04/2024 10:04

All your points suggest is creating a society that is intolerant of those with different beliefs. That’s not a society I wish to be any part of!

This, and I am not religious.

Cherrysoup · 21/04/2024 15:22

ohdelay · 21/04/2024 10:01

1 and 2 sound reasonable. 3-5 are goose stepping lunacy and almost religious in their ridiculousness. Bit fascist and controlling?

Yet some countries have this, at least in part.

RamblingEclectic · 21/04/2024 15:33

We may be moving in that direction, but I don't see any of these as a priority. The issue with any institution or organisation is what they have the power and incentive to do and what balances they have to challenge violence and corruption, not whether they believe in any divine forces. There are plenty of secular organisations with people convinced they're doing things for the greater good or just through power can get away with hurting people and I don't see much benefit in just focusing on the religious ones.

I can see removing specific seats in the House of Lords for religious positions, though not removing people just because they are religious leaders. Personally, I'd prioritise strongly reducing and capping the number of MPs who are only there as MP retirement, how can we trust them to be impartial in challenging the government?

I can see removing automatic charity status and putting them on the same level as other venues, but there are many, many entertainment venues - especially ones aimed at families and communities - that have charity status. Many of the art venues in my area are also charities. Many religious organisations do charity work - literally every food bank in my area is connected to religious institutions whether churches or temples and my local Cathedral and art venues gives more support for adult education than the council which has stripped it to dust.

I can see removing the legal requirement for schools to include Collective Worship, plenty of schools already push that law enough and I think it would be great for parents to have the option to have a secular school for their children rather than having to home educate for that. I can also see removing ability for state schools to have family's religion as part of the admissions criteria - this is already Church of England policy to not have that in CoE schools though not all such schools follow that. I don't think we can remove schools being connected to churches, literally. I don't think the UK could afford to either buy the schools where the land and/or building is owned by a religious group or accomodate the schools elsewhere. We have to acknowledge in the UK that many early schools were established by religious groups and we have the legacy from that. I also don't think it would have much benefits nor that it should be a priority in education that is struggling enough.

Distinguishing between organised worship and cultural activities is a lot messier than I think you realise. Even more with religious symbols and dress with cultural symbols and dress and personal symbols and dress. How would you distinguish between my wearing long skirts for personal reasons and another who wears them for religious reasons? How would you address attire for festivals that people celebrate for religious, cultural, and personal reasons? Or clothes with words on them refering to religions, in seriousness or jest? In your regime, would people be allowed to wear Dark Souls shirts?

When people compare all religions to cults or gangs, I can only imagine they've little experience with any of it to try to go for such cheap shock value, ignoring how dismissive it feels to put the vicar down the street who said about Easter "I hope you have a good holiday, if you celebrate..." in the same box as the group who threatened and attempted to kidnap my kids because I'd left as a teenager.

some religions are able to completely disregard laws on equality

The Equality Act and similar legislation all have excemptions in them, and religious organisations are far from the only ones.

VJBR · 21/04/2024 15:35

You are entitled to your opinion. Thankfully so is everyone else. To equate churches with ‘other forms of entertainment’ is frankly insulting and shows how ignorant you are. Churches fund-raise for a lot of charities, collect for food banks, provide free transport to hospitals for those in need, provide pastoral care after a bereavement and the majority of vicars in villages do it voluntarily. They do not receive a stipend.

CharlotteCollinsneeLucas · 21/04/2024 15:35

I think religions become problematic when they get too much power. So do other institutions and a lot of individuals. There are good and bad people in all religions and institutions, but the people who are attracted to power are usually unfit to make decisions for the good of others. Power corrupts.

I don't know how to get round this. I don't think points 3 to 5 will help but points 1 and 2 might.

bombastix · 21/04/2024 15:41

You will never do anything much about people wanting to congregate and celebrate or recognize their religious belief. It's one of those man made ideas which never goes away entirely.

That's not to say that schools or institutions which receive public money should be accommodating religious belief. Really they should not, and whether children should receive religious teaching is for the parents. It's pretty clear that unless you do bother to do this at a young age, people don't adopt religion very often as adults.

katenutzs · 21/04/2024 15:50

This reply has been deleted

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titbumwillypoo · 21/04/2024 15:54

Proudtobeanortherner · Today 14:59
but that would mean that I am forced to follow your “faith” so isn’t that also wrong if you follow your own logic? The intrinsic moral values of this country stem from the original Ten Commandments
Thatcher (Methodist) broke "thou shall not kill"
Major (Christian) broke “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
Blair (Catholic) broke "thou shall not kill"
Brown (church of Scotland) "thou shall not kill"
David Cameron (Church of England) "thou shall not kill"
Theresa May (Church of England) “Thou shalt not steal.”
Boris Johnson (Catholic) All of them
Liz Truss (church of England) “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
Rishi Sunak (Hindu) failing on the Hindu ethical code that attaches great importance to values such as truth, right conduct, love, peace and non-violence.
I'd say from a religious point of view ALL the British PM's in my lifetime have been hypocrites as none of them have have stuck to the basic rules.

OP posts:
Combattingthemoaners · 21/04/2024 16:20

I am an atheist but respect people’s right to worship or be religious. However, I do agree about faith schools. It’s the equivalent of Apple buying schools and forcing people to have an I-Phone to gain entry there. I don’t think any private institution should have a say in schools- including academy chains.

Cakeandcardio · 21/04/2024 16:21

I've noticed that non-religious folk always want non-faith schools. Even although they have no idea about them 😅

Combattingthemoaners · 21/04/2024 16:22

Cakeandcardio · 21/04/2024 16:21

I've noticed that non-religious folk always want non-faith schools. Even although they have no idea about them 😅

I work in one.

LordPercyPercy · 21/04/2024 16:24

You're holding up a country that has in parts banned abortions to victims of rape in the name of Christian values?

No, I'm making no value judgement. I'm pointing out that collectively our human brains seem to need some sort of belief system. As Western societies have moved away from more traditional religious beliefs they have embraced new ideologies rather than science and rationality.

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