To think part of the increase in long term sickness is the increase in retirement age?

[Lazykitten]

Thinking of the people I know who are long term economically inactive long term (I believe that counted as over 6 months) and nearly all I know who fall into that bracket are my parents and there friends. Dad was a factory sparky and mum was a cleaner. Dad stopped work at i think around 61, mum does part time caring now in her early 60s but really struggles and I can see her having to give it up soon.

Most of their friends had similar manual jobs and now in their mid 60s a lot are signed off sick waiting for pension. These are people who have had manual jobs since they were 15/16 and their bodies are knackered. They can't (and very little point) in retraining now for their last couple of years before they get the state pension.

I work in an office job so can feasibly see how I could work to my late 60s and beyond, but those who've done manual work for over 40 years have the wear and tear on their bodies that they simply can't. As well as other health problems & decreasing energy levels that come with ageing.

There's got to be a sizeable number of folk age 60-67 that fall in that bracket? And taking it further is it another stick to beat the working class with?

Well if it’s inevitable that your body falls apart in your 40s then as a society we are fucked. That will mean people work for 20 odd years then need to be fully supported by the state for the remaining 60+ ones. How the hell does that make sense. Also if you are suffering serious wear and tear on your body in your 40s then you’ve done something majorly wrong over the past few decades. Most people should be well able to work until they’re 60s, with some exceptions.

What year did all these disability benefits start to be paid ? My mum has quite sever mh problems for most of her life, admission to mh hospitals and never claimed anything?

Oh of course I agree re mental health. It's important to look after it, but also to work with it, not against it.

I suffered from a bad case of anxiety last year for about 2-3 months. Related to menopause probably. Saw my GP about it for the first time in ages and he actually listened, referred me to talking therapies, and did ask if I wanted pills - but I said no to both of those as I've had bad experiences with them in the past. I actually didn't end up requiring anything and got through it by myself (I didn't think I would do) and luckily had savings so I could support myself whilst off work (but they won't last forever!) and do have other income, but I was much happier once I was back in work, albeit mostly WFH apart from 2 days a week in the office.

I do sometimes hear about friends DC who have mental health issues, don't want to work and don't work or have to be really supported through this. I don't doubt that a workplace or study place shouldn't help them at all, along with the requisite medical health care, but the person in question also has to help themselves, and not fall back on, I have anxiety, depression, ergo I cannot and will not work.

ND is slightly different to me, as that is far more complex and requires more care and understanding to enable people who are ND to work/study effectively. If you physically cannot work, such as DB's FIL who had a stroke and is a paraplegic then you cannot work, and he was medically retired, I think at 50 or 55.

But whereas, when I was younger, mental health was seen as, well it was recognised, and I had a bit of therapy (probably undiagnosed PTSD and PMT but severe kind), we still had to get on with it, in a sense.

We did have a form of CAHMS then but it was called something different.

I went to a child psychologist/psychotherapy centre run by the local authority/health care authority from age 14-15 to about 17 for regular therapy sessions once a week after school. Not that it did me any good as all the person there did was listen to me! It would've been far better for me to manage when I got depressed/anxious (which my DM eventually linked my severe PMT to) and I got prescribed the pill, which really helped, as it evened out my hormones! Still not sure if I have an underactive thyroid back then which I have now which was never diagnosed or tested for. Symptoms can apparently be similar to severe or normal PMT.

@NotARealWookiie that is a such a good point and one that really needs repeating to politicians. In lockdown I was getting increasingly bad pain in my lower back, to the point i was limiting my movement.

I was luck enough to be able to access physio and medical advice through my work private health scheme, who diagnosed piriformis syndrome - basically a tightening of the large muscle across my lower back and hip - probably caused by less than ideal working arrangments during lockdown (I had to work very long hours at my dining table).

I was equipped with exercises and advice that pushing it with physical activity would help. Now I have hardly any pain. Whereas if I had gone untreated and followed my instincts not to push myself phsically I would be much more inactive - causing further health issues.

I think a lot of people are in denial about how much lifestyle choices affect health. I think there's some serious delusion about what a healthy weight actually is and how much exercise (and what counts as exercise) they should really be doing. Doesn't catch up to you until it does...
Everyone seems to think they are the outlier, as if statistical risk isn't real or doesn't apply to them...

There are issues I think with a lot more jobs now requiring good social skills than in the past, hence making it difficult for ND people for example. This is particularly an issue for young people, as older ND people may have already found a niche and have devised their own coping skills out of necessity. They are often not diagnosed, just seen as a bit odd sometimes.

OK, in the past Autism usually wasn't recognised unless it was severe, but a young person who struggled socially was likely to be able to get a job in a factory, or doing data input in an office and social skills werent really required. There are very few of those types of jobs now, most jobs seem to require frequent routine changes, agile working of some type, so the ND person becomes horribly anxious and cannot cope.

Yes of course I’m aware of that. I’m now older than my mum was by a few years, am active in my job, eat well and hike the hills and do resistance work. I’m lucky not to have chronic health conditions. I want to stack the odds in my favour. What I hate are the smug posts implying that if only everyone lived like this and copy the poster, they’d never get ill (I think the pp mentioned she never gets colds) without thinking that life is more complex. It’s not as simple as applying data from large studies to individuals and implying it’s their own fault for getting ill.

This. Sometimes ramps up earlier , especially if you’ve had a physical job or previous sporting injuries.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. I'm a primary school teacher and am really struggling to see how I'm supposed to carry on scurrying around a class of 6-year olds into my late 60s. Given the recruitment and retention crisis, I feel obliged to hang on in there for as long as I can but I'm getting creaky at 50!

Exactly, the thought of doing long days, bending over tiny chairs for another 17 years until I can retire, is horrible. Especially with the increase of pupils with significant needs in mainstream-needing nappy changes and displaying really aggressive behaviour. I don’t really want to be dodging chairs and tables (or being bitten/scratched/spat at) in my mid 60s.

The increase in long term sickness in the under 35’s over the last 3-4 years has got to be related to Covid.

It’s not like a global pandemic of a novel virus that was dangerous enough to lock down the world and make governments pay its citizens to stay at home and do nothing, would have long term affects 🤔

i have a DC who is victim to this. Still at school but contracted a serious life long medical condition, which will massively affect his life, he may well not have if not for Covid. We have been told cases have risen exponentially since then.

Sunak likely is very aware of this but the Tories love to demonise the poor and disabled.

Shame on those who fall for it and vote for them.

There seem to be quite a few factors at play. Some of the people now 'expected' to work until they are 67-68 will experience health issues as a result of having to work longer. Although significant, I do not think (neither the stats point to) that this the key driver of the massive increase of people on long-term sick leave / pay.

Covid has unquestionably play a role, both in terms of long-term physical impact of Covid and mental health issue, as does the fact that the state of the NHS means that there are quite a lot of people waiting for services and/or operations that might be otherwise waiting if their issues were addressed. Again, significant factors but not the only drivers.

In addition, there are some 'perverse' incentives in the system that mean that some people choose not to work - either because they get more money on benefits and/or because they consider that it is not worth the hassle. It is very difficult to determine the true extent but it is not insignificant. Beyond the pressure on the finances, the dependency culture makes younger generations in the families involved less likely to seek work.

So quite a few different factors and each one requires addressing in a different way (no silver bullet) with different measures scoring quite differently in terms of popularity...which is another key factor as to why we are hearing about it now (when the situation has been evident for quite a while).

Office work is very sedentary though, which brings its own problems in old age. Back pain through sitting at a computer for hours being one.

Yeah, right.
In this country, as I observed 20 years ago already, people at "work" do as little as possible to get away with and still get paid.

I'm playing the smallest violin....

I agree. It's so important to look after your health and respect your body, but so many people abuse their bodies due to obesity, smoking, excessive drinking, drug taking etc. It's no surprise that more and more people are unable to do pretty basic things like a job!

the thing that really got to me as I approached retirement was the journey to and from work by public transport. It seems a small thing, but a total of 4 bus trips each day, hanging about waiting in all weathers for buses that were often late or sometimes didn't turn up, a minimum of 40 minutes to get to work on a good day and an hour if there were missing buses and/or traffic issues. I would leave work at around 5.30pm and sometimes wouldn't get in til nearly 7pm. Didn't bother me when I was younger but the chronic tiredness that seems to come with ageing left me struggling with this. When Sunak who will be going everywhere in a chauffer driven car, luxury plane or a helicopter starts pontificating about work being "good" for people, I do laugh. Doubt he's ever stood in the wet and cold on a dark winter morning waiting for a bus that doesn't show up.

I joined the civil service recently and was shocked to find there are no longer wage bands, which you can rise through with years served.

Now, however long I work, however much I learn, there is no wage increase without changing to a different job. No wonder they can’t attract and keep good people from my profession at the level I’m at. Before, it was considered a decent enough job for life as, at the upper end, it paid well enough for comfort, even though it was less well paid than the private sector.

Non-professionals who are good at their jobs and experienced are earning the same as school leavers coming in to it as an entry-level job. Those experienced people are being expected to train these newcomers, who are on the same wage as them.

Nobody with anything about them stays in those lower level jobs. Back in the day, they would have worked their way to the top of their band and at least got some recognition for their experience.

It’s genuinely stupid.

Office workers can do things though, such as use a standing desk, walk around the office more, walk a bit more on the commute, ensure they exercise when not at work.

I'm a classic case. Topped the scales at 23 stone which I blamed on a desk job and a long driving commute. First thing was to get a job closer to home so that I didn't spend two hours a day in the car. Yes, a pay cut, but I saw it as an investment in my health. Then persuaded my employer to provide a standing desk which I used for 3/4 hours per day. Parked in a car park half a mile further away to give me a mile of walking per day. I'm now 15 stones and never felt fitter. It took many years of very slow/gradual weight loss but you have to play the long game with your health.

Yes, I'm under no illusions and I may get run over by a bus tomorrow, or contract some kind of non-lifestyle related cancer, but chances are that I'll live longer than I'd have done at 23 stone and I'm enjoying life more being able to do more, wear normal clothes, etc. No guarantees, but the fitter your body, the more likely you are to live a longer, healthier life.

Agree entirely.

@Bersham Totally agree with you.

I think that peoples immunity also took a massive hit during the lock down and we are paying the price for that. And that the older you are, the harder to bounce back. I have been ill almost non stop since last September, just catching everything that comes along. There dont seem to be any underlying problems, but eventually sick leave policy will kick in - for example at the moment I have been unable to sp for the last two days because this latest cold has made me lose my voice. So I may well end up in this group.

Hmm and my OH is 65 and works writing software and databases. Obviously able to deal with technology. My 75 year old mum was also perfectly capable on the PC , a little less so on a smartphone.

So I think it's more people than age

@YorkshirePuddingsGreatestFan 'excel with grant' on youtube.

In the rest of north, west Europe and Scandinavia, their pensions are much better. As an English person, I'm jealous Scotland have the choice to leave the UK, and become a separate nation in the EU, or like Norway and Iceland, and just be in the European market, so they can have politicians who work for the people, than like here in England, where we're just lapdogs to a certain country, and believe politicians care about us, when all they care about is to keep our economy closely linked to USA banks, encouraging a society that's greedy, in debt and a permanent state of wa r.

Definitely the person rather than their age.

The first "home" computer was 1980, which is 44 years ago! Even before that, there were computer games you plugged into your television. I started work in 1983 and we had several computers in the office even back then, which was a surprise with it being a tiny father/son firm with just 10 staff, many of whom were in their 50's and happily using the computers.

I was using home phone banking in the early 90s, and got my first mobile phone around 1994, so the transition into online banking and smart phones was easy and seemless.

My mother bought her first word processor when she retired in her 60s and moved onto laptops and and an ipad in her 70s.

It's definitely more about attitude than ability for most people. I have sympathy for people, say, 80+ who legitimately had little use/need for computers in their working lives, but anyone of working age who can't use computers must have been living under a rock under they have a genuine disability. It's a transferrable skill from one kind of device to another, i.e. understanding menus and terminology etc., so if you keep using computers/devices on a regular basis, your "pathway" to different types will be a lot easier/smoother. It's also a bit of a clue when people who constantly post on social media such as Facebook, but then claim they don't know how to Google or put in a Facebook post that they don't have the internet!!