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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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16
Myfavouritecolourisanimalprint · 19/04/2024 13:35

I've worked full time for over 30 years and never been ill for long enough to warrant a sicknote (which I know is down to luck, especially as I'm morbidly obese), but I don't begrudge anyone being able to pay their bills and feed their children if they aren't fit to work, because I'm not a monster. In fact I think SSP needs to be seriously looked at. So many of us have little or nothing in savings, so there's no buffer for people whose employers don't have sick pay

DistinguishedSocialCommentator · 19/04/2024 13:37

DuchesseNemours · 19/04/2024 12:51

They kinda did and kinda didn't.

It was a statement made by a pensions advisor who is working with Labour - so not a Labour policy - and was in reference to his own circumstances where he felt he (and pensioners like him) were not taxed enough. Or, to be even more specific, were given too many tax breaks.

can you guarantee Labour would not tax pensioners even more?

You can't and that is a fact.
**
I'm not a tory nor labour as both as as bad as the other, IE in it for themselves and if you dont believe that, then there is nothing more I can say

Bumpitybumper · 19/04/2024 13:40

GoodnightAdeline · 19/04/2024 13:12

This is the issue.

A poster who assesses claims wrote a very eloquent post a while back about the circumstances a lot of claimants live in. It wasn’t blaming individuals, more describing the culture under which a lot of people live due to lack of education and the culture around them.

Essentially a lot of them have grown up in claiming households, they have never been exposed to the world of work and all they really know anything about is the benefits system and how to extract as much from it as possible. Because they’re not working they live chaotic lifestyles alongside other chaotic people- drinking, smoking/vaping, drugs, bad quality food. So inevitably they end up collecting an array of diagnoses over the years which then further embed them into the benefits system. They inevitably have children which then further restricts any prospect of work and means yet more claims. As the years go by they become completely unemployable as their mindset, mental health, physical health and life skills mean they just aren’t up to it. And the cycle then continues.

It was quite a sympathetic post actually, but the issue is throwing money at them isn’t the answer, but nor can you make them do anything by way of bringing their children up responsibly and healthily. The only solutions are fairly radical and at odds with our societal values of a right to family life, bodily autonomy and so on.

Exactly this!

There is prevailing narrative amongst the left and on this forum that all of the poor, disabled and ill are unfortunate victims of a broken system. The idea is that there almost an inevitability to it all, it's the system/government's fault and the individual has absolutely no responsibility or accountability.

Any arguments to the contrary are shouted down as for some reason they prefer people to believe that they are completely disempowered. We are extremely fortunate to live in a country where there is opportunities available to almost everyone to look after and better themselves. Every child can access an education and we have relatively affordable, healthy food available to us on small budgets. There is so much people can do to help themselves and yet our focus is always deliberately pulled to what people can't do.

Just to be clear, I fully acknowledge that it's not a level playing field and there are all kinds of structural inequalities in place but I think there is a narrative that the individual doesn't really have to try until things are completely fair (which will be never).

RadoxMoon · 19/04/2024 13:41

Uniworries · 19/04/2024 13:32

How will it work? Someone who is a student, or can't work, or is currently unemployed, loses their place in the huge queues for an operation and is left to have a heart attack or stroke, so someone who can work doesn't, and can get back to work?

I was more thinking that if, for instance, there were three people waiting who all had the same level of clinical need (as obviously you’d want to prioritise on that first), but one was currently signed off sick, one was still able to work and one was retired that the one signed off sick would get priority, rather than it just being on length of time.

Uniworries · 19/04/2024 13:42

I also wonder what will happen to people who need an unfit for work note, who aren't claiming benefits or SSP?
Ie: university students suffering bereavements, children who need time of school sick, unpaid carers who need social services to step in because they've broken a leg etc Right now a DR takes a look and makes a fast decision and the ball gets rolling.
I can imagine what will happen when the Dr's information has to pass through a DWP/ Capita portal and be assessed for a decision as to if you are genuinely unfit for work, before actions can be started.

Uniworries · 19/04/2024 13:45

RadoxMoon · 19/04/2024 13:41

I was more thinking that if, for instance, there were three people waiting who all had the same level of clinical need (as obviously you’d want to prioritise on that first), but one was currently signed off sick, one was still able to work and one was retired that the one signed off sick would get priority, rather than it just being on length of time.

I think you would create a huge burden and time delays trying to assess clinical parity, and you could end up with one of the other two repeatedly displaced by others also on SSP, and having a heart attack or stroke while they waited even longer. Really we need to fix the situations that have lead to such massive queues.

SquirrelMeze · 19/04/2024 13:48

CrispsnDips · 19/04/2024 11:53

I get frustrated with two women I know who are VERY active with heavy gardening work (digging, moving concrete slabs, etc), walking long walks EVERY day (at a fast pace as I walked with one recently) yet have been signed off work for over ten years. I really don’t understand it!

Another lady receives an allowance for her teenage Autistic son, only allowing her to work 16 hours pw. Her son attends school regularly, cooks for himself and has even started his own business.

Wow @CrispsnDips if she knew what you were saying, I'm sure she wouldn't want to walk with you. Maybe she has autism or depression or PTSD and these all are benefited by exercise.

NO ONE WANTS TO BE DISABLED.

If you aren't ill or disabled you are lucky. Health = wealth. But - but - everyone can become disabled in an instant.
It's so infuriating that people think "not me - I worked for what I got" because that's not how disabilities work.

Iwasafool · 19/04/2024 13:48

GoodnightAdeline · 19/04/2024 11:24

Which variable conditions?

I suppose there are lots but for me it is a hip condition. As I understand it, and it seems complicated the ,top of the bone isn't quite the right shape so can cause a rubbing against the hip joint, I have no idea why but I can be fine and pain free for days or weeks and then I get up one day and I am in agony, standing at the sink for 2 minutes brings me to tears, I can't bend, I can't carry anything, I can't lift anything. It goes on for however long it takes and then one day I'm fine.

If you see me when I am in a good period and someone else told you about the fact I can't walk or stand and I'm living on painkillers you'd think they were lying or I was lying to them. You need an xray to understand what is happening.

Doesn't involve benefits as I'm a pensioner.

malificent7 · 19/04/2024 13:49

One of my colleagues in the nhs was" performance managed." What that really meant was that his life was made so unbearable that he was scared to come into work. He did struggle in but had to leave. His crime? I dunno...his English wasn't amazing but a lovely chap.
I can see why people get bad MH at work tbh.

readdysteddy · 19/04/2024 13:49

The Tory's always do this its exactly the same kind of thing they were pedalling in the early 2010's before everyone lost their minds over Brexit.

Its a cheap shot but like anti-immigration policy it is popular with a lot of people. I think there was some research done about 10 years ago at the height of the period where the unemployed and disabled were being targeted where even people who were in receipt of benefits themselves were likely to think that many others were fraudulently claiming or getting too much money. Its a perverse quirk of human nature the tory's are hoping to capitalise on because lets face it they don't have much else going for them do they, perhaps they should let that rotten lettuce (the one that lasted longer than Liz Truss) head them up its bound to have some better ideas and certainly more charisma than any of the current lot.

Thegoodbadandugly · 19/04/2024 13:53

Coming from a man who asked a homeless man what he worked as is enough to say it all, today on my commute I saw several people sleeping in doorways and it's freezing and windy. Our NHS is on its knees as is mental health services in fact any service you can think of is on it's knees and yet all Mr Sunak is concerned about is punishing sick people and having a go at people that are escaping war torn countries.

IClaudine · 19/04/2024 13:57

Sunak is also going after PIP claimants, many of whom work.

On the review of Pip, Sunak said it may be right to pay one-off costs for adaptations, but that the payments may not need to be ongoing

This is a recycled idea from Osborne who cane up with this exact policy and then abandoned it. Even Johnson and IDS thought it a step too far.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/22/boris-johnson-george-osborne-mistake-cut-pip-disability

JLT24 · 19/04/2024 14:01

GoodnightAdeline · 19/04/2024 10:20

I’m disabled, physically disabled, I’m on 6 lots of medications a day that I would have about 4 days to live if I didn’t take them. I’m up every night with pain and symptoms. I work.

So?

Iwasafool · 19/04/2024 14:02

DuchesseNemours · 19/04/2024 12:51

They kinda did and kinda didn't.

It was a statement made by a pensions advisor who is working with Labour - so not a Labour policy - and was in reference to his own circumstances where he felt he (and pensioners like him) were not taxed enough. Or, to be even more specific, were given too many tax breaks.

What tax breaks do pensioners get? I'm missing out obviously. I have 2 pensions, state pension and my work pension, just like everyone else I pay tax on all my income over £12,570 a year at 20%. I have savings in an ISA but that isn't age related. I pay VAT and council tax the same as anyone else. I suppose the only tax break I know about is I don't pay NI.

Workworkandmoreworknow · 19/04/2024 14:04

There is prevailing narrative amongst the left and on this forum that all of the poor, disabled and ill are unfortunate victims of a broken system. The idea is that there almost an inevitability to it all, it's the system/government's fault and the individual has absolutely no responsibility or accountability. Any arguments to the contrary are shouted down as for some reason they prefer people to believe that they are completely disempowered. We are extremely fortunate to live in a country where there is opportunities available to almost everyone to look after and better themselves. Every child can access an education and we have relatively affordable, healthy food available to us on small budgets. There is so much peoplecando to help themselves and yet our focus is always deliberately pulled to what people can't do. Just to be clear, I fully acknowledge that it's not a level playing field and there are all kinds of structural inequalities in place but I think there is a narrative that the individual doesn't really have to try until things are completely fair (which will be never)

So if there's all kinds of structural inequalities in place, have you ever tried to get a job as a disabled person? What conditions have you lived with on a daily basis and can say, categorically, that every person with that condition will experience it in exactly the same way? You do realise that 'disabled' isn't a homogenous group? That even when 'disabled' puts someone at a disadvantage, everyone with a disability has started from a different point in the first place? That some will be educated, with the disability occurring later in life once a career has bene built, some pension built up in a scheme that gives a generous some for medical retirement.....or others will have had the disability from day one, with parents who struggled to manage it, who themselves struggled to navigate the joy that is social care, benefits, and more importantly rights....

I can tell you as the parent of a child with T1D and also a teacher that schools as a collective handle difference and medical need appallingly, engaging in discriminatory and illegal behaviour which you need half a brain, some experience, a bit of gumption and then some actual knowledge to be able to handle effectively. It is no surprise that for some, it is too much, too hard, and too complex. There are not only cracks, but huge gaping holes for both children and adults to just fall through. I personally expect my child to fight - to work hard, to do whatever it is he can to manage his difference and his condition so his future is as secure as it can be. And it is a fight. A huge one. And one he might not win.

JLT24 · 19/04/2024 14:04

CamoPenguin · 19/04/2024 11:28

Exactly - "I'm disabled but I also work so every other disabled person should too."

The ignorance in this way of thinking is astounding 😯

IClaudine · 19/04/2024 14:06

Hope you don't get PIP @GoodnightAdeline. Sunak hates you too if you do.

hellesbells · 19/04/2024 14:07

Ladybir · 19/04/2024 09:48

Like it or not but I believe there will be a good proportion of the UK population who agree with him

No there isn't you agree with it don't tar everyone with the same brush

Joleyne · 19/04/2024 14:11

He needs to sort out Ofsted and what they're doing to childcare.

Right now, they are suspending childcarers on the flimsiest grounds, then finding anything they can to keep those suspensions in place by alleging the provider has mental health issues (admit you aren't sleeping properly, you're tearful, you're upset and Ofsted will use it).
They are largely responsible for childcare numbers plummeting.

The Government now has a childcare crisis. They are short of around 85000 places and they've put childcare on the list of professions that will fast track a person through immigration.

So the Government is actively preventing qualified, experienced childcarers from working in childcare, yet promoting the immigration of anyone with childcare experience.

I think Rishi Sunak needs to address this ridiculous situation before he starts blaming doctors for signing sick notes.

HeadNorth · 19/04/2024 14:12

Thames Water has reported £15.6bn debt which will now have to be paid for us when it forced to return to public ownership due to insolvency Do you know how much debt it had when it was taken out of public ownership? Zero. All that money has been taken by shareholders while pumping sewage into our waters and we are now going to pay £15.6bn for their greed.

So excuse me if I am not too bothered by the odd lazy shirker managing to claim a few benefits. It is small change compared to the daylight robbery perpetrated by politicians, who then have the cheek to try to take the moral highground.

Increased deprivation and erosion of healthcare and public services means a less healthy population - how dare Rishi blame the poor and sick for being poor and sick. He has no idea how most people live.

hellesbells · 19/04/2024 14:13

GoodnightAdeline · 19/04/2024 10:14

No doubt some people who were born yesterday will say ‘she’s probably fine and able to muck out horses one day and totally incapacitated the next’

No nobody is going to say that any intelligent person knows that with the benefits net there will be some chancers, what intelligent people don't do is conflate anecdotal stories with evidence and facts, the Government figures on fraudulent claims show it is a minuscule figure - look it up

hellesbells · 19/04/2024 14:15

MeMyCatsAndMyBooks · 19/04/2024 10:16

@GoodnightAdeline on the money there. They muck it out every day of the week, that requires a lot of muscles & joints they claims doesn't work properly. Before anyone starts Grin

It does annoy me as a disabled person myself who does struggle to do simple things seeing people play on illnesses, but in the grand schemes of things benefit fraud is such a small percentage of fraud that goes in this country.

Tories need out, anyone who votes them back in are truly clueless.

It's anecdotal not evidence, you should read Sunaks speech in full because they are coming after your PIP

SoundTheSirens · 19/04/2024 14:17

IClaudine · 19/04/2024 13:57

Sunak is also going after PIP claimants, many of whom work.

On the review of Pip, Sunak said it may be right to pay one-off costs for adaptations, but that the payments may not need to be ongoing

This is a recycled idea from Osborne who cane up with this exact policy and then abandoned it. Even Johnson and IDS thought it a step too far.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/22/boris-johnson-george-osborne-mistake-cut-pip-disability

Edited

Fucksake. He and his SPADs really know nothing about living with a disability, do they?

What kind of 'one-off' adaptation would make a difference to my DH with his five co-morbid disabilities, one of which is a severe MH condition meaning he can't plan or execute journeys safely so has to use taxis if I'm not available, and also means he has to pay privately for specific ongoing therapy which he can't get on the NHS because the Tories have razed MH services to the ground? That's the kind of thing his PIP pays for.

It's the old stereotype that "disability = wheelchair". I thought we'd managed to move past that.

hellesbells · 19/04/2024 14:17

DistinguishedSocialCommentator · 19/04/2024 10:26

Dis labout person not suggest "tax the pensioners more" yesterday?

Both parties are in it for themselves and if you think different, then you have been fooled

Some pensioners should be taxed more, but hey you keep bleating on with your whataboutery

Fernhurst · 19/04/2024 14:17

The tories have had a lot of success with getting people to vote how they want by lying and scapegoating. Why change a winning formula?

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