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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Not to negotiate my inheritance

109 replies

Needafriend14 · 15/04/2024 10:28

I need a hand hold and some advice please.My DM passed away last July after a battle with cancer. Im still grieving there isn't a day goes by that I don't think about her. I miss her so much.she was my best friend, confident and gave me unconditional love.I was blessed. We were joined at the hip.I took her to luncheon clubs, art clubs ,GP hospital appointment, shopping etc

Rewind 5 years ago and she 'gifted' me and my family a deposit for a larger house so she could move in with us.I had an extension made like a flat to accommodate her.

She took ill last February and it was down hill after that.My 2 brothers (lets call them Bill and Ben) came into ours lives after only visiting once or twice a year..

They asked about a Will and had she had made one.She had I was given 40% both Biil and Benn 30% ( I know very distasteful at this time in her life) they knew about the gift and said it was Ok. However they had the Will revised (unbeknown to mum, she agreed in the end that Ben instead of Bill and myself was executors. I was still one of the executors.

Fast forward 5 months when she had passed away and Ben couldn't wait to send it to probate.He didn't organise anything else.

Anyway legalities went through and I don't think it was what they had been planning (I think the solicitor knew what they were up to). To their dismay the 'gift' was included in the final distributions.Ben rang me and said I hadn't disclosed it. I said I had and he asked the probate manger proof or this.When received proof he suggested that I get back to her and say that I borrowed it ( the gift)He then asked probate to revalue the Will because it wasn't fair and claimed that he me and DM had had a conversation about early inheritance !!

All over Christmas he was messaging me saying he has now hired a booking ledger to look at 7 year statements (I presume he thinks I have been dipping in her account) I haven't.

It has been horendous no compassion I have been in bits.

All through this he is saying (in a very polite professional way he is just doing what an executor does) and wants to distribute the money evenly. Because I had the gift and it should be equal.

This point I am not communicating with him. Bill gets on and suggests a mediator with legal qualifications. I state I don't need one there is nothing to discuss the probate manger has confirmed twice that everything is in place and that signatures are needed.

Any way Ben won't sign the final documents and has threaten me( in a nice way) with the 7 year statements.His last message was 'no stone will go unturned' We need a mediation!'

Sorry it's so long thanks for reading I just needed to get this off my chest to see what you all think AIBU? It is effecting my wellbeing and I can't put mum to rest.

OP posts:

Luckydog7 · 15/04/2024 12:57

Agree with pp, ensure that your brother is not trying to manipulate you by trying to get you to pay more then your fair share of the inheritance tax. If you need to get legal advice as to what constitute a fair share then fine. Don't just go with what he says, he sounds like a dick!

TextureSeeker · 15/04/2024 12:59

I think your brothers are probably somewhat hurt too. Wills aren't just about the money, it's about the love. My grandmother left all of her money and assets to just one of the 5 siblings. My Dad was so hurt, it confirmed what he already knew that that sibling and her children were the favourite.

He did distance himself from his mother at points because it was always evident that that particular sibling was the favourite and could do no wrong. It wasn't that he didn't love or care for his mother it was because he didn't feel the love and care was reciprocated.

I'm willing to bet that there are really complicated feelings about you being the favoured one flying around in the mix too. You say yourself you were joined at the hip, perhaps your brothers felt that that left no room for them. Family relationships are hard, there are so many different layers to them and each sibling sees the relationships in the family differently to the others.

I don't really have advice on the money front but I just wanted to say chances are they are hurting too.

NeedToChangeName · 15/04/2024 13:04

Needafriend14 · 15/04/2024 11:14

Thank you all yes its true I did take care of her.

TimeGrabsYouByTheWrist Yes that's what he is trying to say but I couldn't go back to probate and say it was a load I declared it. He tried to say if you say it's a loan you can get away with not paying tax!

Hecatoncheires. Thank you its true I haven't done anything wrong however at times I get a really critical voice in my head. That's when I think IABU.

Spirallingdownwards · It was changed 4 weeks before she passed away Bill said he didn't want to be an executor and Ben stepped in because he is more manipulative. They are always working together.

Ben is a real turd both are its not as if they need any more money they both have holiday homes, various properties and Ben lives on millionaires row in Windermere.

I cant afford to negotiate I will have a large tax bill.They are both bully me as usual.

Surely any inheritance tax is payable by your mum's estate, not you personally

elevens24 · 15/04/2024 13:12

Did your mother write a letter as part of the conveyancing process when you bought your home declaring it was a gift?

BoneshakerBike · 15/04/2024 13:39

What you describe doesnt quite make sense but is sounds as if yhey are correctly fulfilling their duty as executor . the estate cant be settled without including the gift as it MAY be pertinent to IHT.
Gifts made within 7 years count a start of the estate for inheritance tax on a declining scale. The value of the estate which you don't mention is key here.

BoneshakerBike · 15/04/2024 13:40

NeedToChangeName · 15/04/2024 13:04

Surely any inheritance tax is payable by your mum's estate, not you personally

Show quote history

It is but it doesn't seem fair that they would be doubly losing out- they didnt get the gift and then there share in reduced to due IHT on that gift. It all depends on the figures.

The fairest option is to count it as part of the estate and required and then proceed from there which I think is the legal advice that they have been given (it is a bit unclear)

LongCareerOfNearMisses · 15/04/2024 14:18

Sorry if I'm being stupid but I don't understand this:

However they had the Will revised (unbeknown to mum, she agreed in the end that Ben instead of Bill and myself was executors. I was still one of the executors.

You can't revise a will without the person knowing? What happened here?

MaybeRevisitYourWipingT3chnique · 15/04/2024 14:28

You think they're hurt that she 'forced' them not to visit her more than once a year?

They showed her precious little love whilst she was still alive in her last years, but now they're hurt that she maybe didn't love them quite as much as their sister who was always there for her and made big changes to her own life in order to enable their mother's practical needs and comfort?

When you're a little child, you do have the right to expect unconditional love from parents who always put you first and accept that you may struggle with understanding and showing gratitude for all they do for you. When you're a middle-aged adult, it's not really such a good look...

Soontobe60 · 15/04/2024 14:33

bottomsup12 · 15/04/2024 10:33

Your gift is to cover the expense of your mother living with you in her final days. They did not have the expense of building a livable space for your DM so they should factor that in.

If balancing the books, consider your gift and then also throw in the money spent for your granny Annexe to the calculation.

The ‘gift’ was made 5 years ago, her DM only became ill last year.

Soontobe60 · 15/04/2024 14:36

smellslikecinnamon · 15/04/2024 12:08

Your DM knew what she was doing. She gave you 40% and a gift as you cared for her. She gave them 30% and no gift as they abandoned her.

The OP didnt care for her at the time that her DM gave her the money though.

StopTheGreyness · 15/04/2024 14:36

Your brother can keep on trying to hassle you but he has no grounds on which to challenge the will so it is tough titty for him. I say this as someone who was involved in a will dispute. Stand your ground and be blunt, say you are not going to mediation as there is nothing to mediate and you refuse to discuss it anymore. He can look through all the bank statements etc for as long as he likes but it won’t change a thing. Your other brother will soon get sick of all this stalling so I wouldn’t worry too much. If you give them nowhere to go they’ll have nowhere to go. It is extremely expensive to challenge a will, he has no chance.

StopTheGreyness · 15/04/2024 14:42

When I say be blunt, I mean tell Ben to
fuck off.

honeylulu · 15/04/2024 14:43

LongCareerOfNearMisses · 15/04/2024 14:18

Sorry if I'm being stupid but I don't understand this:

However they had the Will revised (unbeknown to mum, she agreed in the end that Ben instead of Bill and myself was executors. I was still one of the executors.

You can't revise a will without the person knowing? What happened here?

I think OP means the brothers had a revised will prepared without telling mother but then mother later agreed to execute it and did so.

DistinguishedSocialCommentator · 15/04/2024 14:46

Did mum give you a large gift when she was alive and now left you in her Will 40% and the brothers grim 30% each?

If it is as above, then the brothers should have no problem and if they do, its their problem

UnbelievableLie · 15/04/2024 14:51

Surely if the money she gave you was used for a deposit, this was clearly evidenced during the purchase? Your conveyancer should have checked where the money came from and if it was given to you by family, they have to sign a declaration that it's a gift or loan etc.

HedonistHuntress · 15/04/2024 14:58

I think the gifted ££ does need to be included as it’s within the 7 years but “you” don’t pay IHT, your mother’s estate does. Once the tax bill has been correctly calculated, then you get your 40% and they get their 30% each and all is fine.

You know you haven’t done anything wrong. Just follow the law and your mother’s wishes will be carried out.

GeorgiePorge · 15/04/2024 15:04

BoneshakerBike · 15/04/2024 13:40

It is but it doesn't seem fair that they would be doubly losing out- they didnt get the gift and then there share in reduced to due IHT on that gift. It all depends on the figures.

The fairest option is to count it as part of the estate and required and then proceed from there which I think is the legal advice that they have been given (it is a bit unclear)

Edited

Show quote history

In the UK, inheritance isn't about being fair or equitable. The OPs mother had assets and was of sound mind when she chose how she wanted them to be distributed on her death. She was of sound mind when she gave a gift to her daughter.

The children are the beneficiaries of the residual Estate.. there is no 'losing twice' here - as there was no entitlement to it in the first place.

you see on MN all the time the misconception that wills should or need to be fair and it is total rubbish. The legal challenges that succeed are where there is manipulation/coercion of a vulnerable person - very hard to actually prove, or where there is no provision for dependents. Not the case here, the sons can neither argue they were dependent, or that no provision has been made.

They are acting like greedy entitled fu*ks that are treating their mother's wishes appallingly. OP I am sorry for your loss and the rubbish family you are left with. Please don't give into their threatening and bullying behaviour.

TextureSeeker · 15/04/2024 15:10

MaybeRevisitYourWipingT3chnique · 15/04/2024 14:28

You think they're hurt that she 'forced' them not to visit her more than once a year?

Honestly we don't know how they feel. We don't know their relationship. How many times did the mother visit them? How often did she initiate contact? Relationships are 2 way after all. As is said here often children don't owe their parents care, especially if they haven't received it from their parent.

What are the chances the mother managed to raise 1 lovely loving daughter with a close relationship, treated the sons the same way as the daughter but both of them distanced themselves and became money grabbing dickheads?

Turning what you said around parents can't expect unconditional love from their children and expect them to show gratitude for just having them. Like I said relationships are complex, we don't know how the sons feel about the fact their mum and sister were 'joined at the hip', we don't know if the mum ever visited the sons, we don't know if any resentments might been built in childhood and grown through adulthood as the things they thought as kids were confirmed as adults. Lots of parents treat their children unequally when they are growing up and beyond, if that happens do the adult children just have to pretend they don't notice?

poetryandwine · 15/04/2024 15:11

OP, I agree with the PP who is a lawyer, though not a probate specialist. She said there is no point in mediation. You only need to establish the facts, and then to follow the law based on those facts.

That is why I think you should seek personal legal advice.

ConsistentlyElectrifiedElves · 15/04/2024 15:19

In my mind there's two things to consider:

Is the gift brought back into the estate for IHT calculation purposes? I think so, yes, as it was within 7 years of her passing; and
How does the will work in terms of that gift. Does the gift have to be factored back in to the final calculations? i.e. is the gift an advance on the 40% you're entitled to in the will, or was it intended to be a gift PLUS 40% of the residual estate. It really needs to be clear, as if the gift falls back in to the estate, you really will end up with less.

If the gift was under £325,000 then it will be tax free anyway, otherwise the lower taper relief rates apply (https://www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/gifts)

You've done the right thing in telling the solicitor it was a gift though. Ultimately when you bought your house you will have had to prove where you got the money from and your DM likely confirmed then that it was a gift. To now say anything different is fraudulent.

Your DB is only wanting it to be considered a loan so that it looks like an advance on your 40%, rather than in addition to.

This is an example of when a decent solicitor will be worth every penny OP. Do you have legal cover with your home insurance?

How Inheritance Tax works: thresholds, rules and allowances

Inheritance Tax (IHT) is paid when a person's estate is worth more than £325,000 when they die - exemptions, passing on property. Sometimes known as death duties.

https://www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/gifts

GreatGateauxsby · 15/04/2024 15:28

No advice but your brothers are absolute turds.

Don’t be bullied by them…

StopTheGreyness · 15/04/2024 15:29

You don't need a lawyer. The onus would be on your brother to prove his version of events. He won't because:

a) It's not true, your mother gifted you the money.
b) It will cost him a fortune to challenge the will.

Just be firm and then ignore him after that. He'll soon get the message, especially if he consults a solicitor himself.

whirlingdevonish · 15/04/2024 15:34

However they had the Will revised (unbeknown to mum, she agreed in the end that Ben instead of Bill and myself was executors. I was still one of the executors.

I don't understand this - they can't have done this, and if they did then surely the will doesn't stand.
The only issue anyone should (potentially) have with you is payment of IHT on the gift. And presumably you'll be doing that rather than the estate more generally.

pontipinemum · 15/04/2024 15:42

All sounds so awful. I hope you get it sorted soon and they can see that they are being arse's

TarantinoIsAMisogynist · 15/04/2024 16:01

For inheritance tax purposes, any gift in excess of the annual allowed amount (£3k) that was made in the 7 years preceding death is considered part of the deceased's estate. This is the law, it's not something you can negotiate. And your brothers are bound to adhere to the law, as executors of the estate.

However, your brother has no right or basis to decide that the gift was actually a loan and should therefore be treated as an advance on your inheritance.

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