Does a child's mental health really improve if you take them out of school?

[MoominPyjamas]

I have absolutely no agenda in this post. My DC struggles going into school. She's refused a few times. She is always happy when I pick her up.
Someone on a SEN chat group said that I was 'abusing' her for sending her to school, knowing that she is unhappy to go in. There's a lot on these chats about school being hell and torture for ND kids, but I don't think this is the case for all.
My question is, are the related MH conditions more prevalent in ND kids less likely to occur if your child isn't in the school system? So if they're home schooled, do they become happier teens, less likely to self harm or lock themselves in their rooms? Is there research on this? I'd be fascinated to see if it was the case and whether EBSA was at all related to a tendency to struggle with your mental health in general. For example my DC has very high and low moods, so if she wasn't in school would this improve or would she always be prone to periods of low mood and then periods of elation?

I have absolutely no agenda in this one way or another. My daughter has ASD but was diagnosed at university, not school.

We had periods where we had a lot of difficulties with school refusal and frankly the meltdowns after school were horrendous from years fourteen to seventeen. We both suffered from the fallout.

BUT we struggled through these issues and despite them I think generally she was better off in school than out. Partly because the school was good academically and she was a good student so she enjoyed that aspect of it even though it caused her a lot of stress. Second, because she made a good group of friends. Thirdly because she thrived with the structure of school and was more disregulated outside of that.

I am not going to sugar coat it. It was very hard at times both on my daughter who was angry and exhausted a lot of the time, and myself as the person who dealt with her frustration and meltdowns. Being undiagnosed of course did not help. But she got very depressed at home and thrived on structure and the school was fairly small and traditional without bullying or discipline issues so she came through it ok in the end.

So my advice op is that you will not find the perfect solution. Just aim for the best imperfect one.

Edited to say: her depression at home was not because she didn’t prefer being at home. She is a homebody through and through. Her depression was mainly because of the lack of routine. She also missed her friends.

I did consider home schooling but I don’t personally feel up to the job as my dd is more intellectually capable than me and has had a superior education to mine, and also, I felt that it wouldn’t help our relationship.

It's going to depend entirely on the child and the school.

Being forced to be somewhere five days a week that fundamentally doesn't suit you is inevitably going to impact your MH. It's the same for adults and work.

I can only speak from our personal experience with DD and DS. DD was completely unable to cope in mainstream education, she was moved and supported with an EHCP to online school from home aged 12 where she finished education.

Had CAMHS done their job even adequately she would have received treatment years earlier and may not have got to the point of no return, but she managed to obtain GCSES and A levels and is currently attending University from home

DS has a similar group of conditions although not as severely as DD and managed to cope in school although his timetable was reduced during Covid due to his anxiety. He also passed A levels and is at the same University as his sister

While both have similar outcomes I do not think DD would be alive today had she not taken the alternative path, she was bullied and miserable and having suicidal ideation.

As parents we can only do our best with the information and resources we have, when DD fell apart there was no help guidance or support, we had to find a path forward ourselves.

Her first EHCP took 4.5 years to achieve but fortunately interim payment was put in place after we self funded her school place, our LA had never placed a student in online schooling before but by her final EHCP the committee agreed that it was the best way to educate her

DS has been home educated for a year and is like a different child in terms of his mental health and anxiety levels (in a good way!).

It depends on the child and their needs.

DS1 has complex needs, including complex MH conditions. He didn’t cope in school. He has had EOTAS via his EHCP for a number of years and it has definitely improved his MH.

But, some DC with mental health difficulties are better suited to being in (the right) school with all the support they require.

What support is the school providing? DD providing Does DD have an EHCP?

It might depend on the school. If it's one of the academies where there is a day in isolation if your shirt comes partly untucked, I can see how a lot of teens mental health would improve away from that environment. If its a more nurturing school environment then it might be different, being away from people etc

Taking an unhappy child out of school is not a magical fix for mental health issues, but in a lot of cases, being out of school means the damage can begin to heal. Forcing them to keep going to school is compounding it.

Some children flourish in school. For others it's hellish. Just like there are work environments that some adults love but others would hate. Generally I say that if their mental health is poor enough that were they an adult they'd be signed off work? They shouldn't be in school if it's causing them distress. Show them the same care and compassion you'd have for someone older.

@InvisibleDuck it was exactly that reasoning that led me to deregister DS.

This is a very good point - we were actually very happy on the whole as a family during lockdown (and I’d quite happily go back sometimes!) but my son who struggles with going into school also really struggles with home learning (and it wasn’t because of the work that was set or because it was punitive or anything like that, it was the self-directed nature of it plus he ended up working for far longer and achieving less (probably ADHD). He may well be happier not going into school in some ways, but he wouldn’t achieve what he will achieve at school where everything is more structured and the pace is quicker. Therefore in the long run he won’t be happy.

On another note, the existence of the special school system is in itself an acceptance that mainstream education is not suitable for all DC's.

One of the main areas for which an EHCP can be issued is social emotional and mental health needs and there are plenty of special schools with that focus.

www.cambiangroup.com/specialist-education/our-schools/semh-schools/

So for those DCs at least they are better off out of (mainstream) school.

There is some speculation not yet backed up be research that the whole zero tolerance/isolation for forgetting your pencil is causing stress and adding to MH problems with teens. No quantitative research as yet although some interesting case studies.

Possibly Dr Lucy Foulkes - Oxford Univ, doing research on adolescent mental health. Have listened to her talk and she has some books about mental health and how we help teens navigate anxiety.

I can only speak from experience. My dd now 16 is ND. Struggled massively as soon as she hit secondary school age. Her mental health was terrible and she did end up in a mental health facility for a short while (just giving context of how severe). We took her out of her mainstream school,plus school didn't feel they could support her at that time. She was home schooled for 18 months.

At first her mental health improved due to the stress of attending school being removed. But then dipped again as she felt lonely and isolated with no friends. There aren't many home school meet ups here. So I found her a place in an alternative provision school for children with an ASD diagnosis. The school is very small with around 9 pupils per class. Lots of support. And she's thrived. Especially being with other children like herself.

Totally dependent on the individual child. I doubt there's enough data to show any proper evidence yet. It's definitely not 'abuse'. I don't think any kid will be 100% happy either at home or at school, it's about balancing the pros and cons of each depending on their situation. if DC is generally happy once there, I'd be inclined to stick with school

I’m the parent of an EBSA and was a secondary teacher for 25 years.

Schools now are horrific in terms of pressure and overload. Constant targets, petty rules, endless work load. Gove changed all the requirements and GCSE’s are much much harder ( stupidly harder). There’s no coursework to ease the load and creative subjects were cut right back. This had a severe impact on student mental health.

My EBSA is ND. She couldn’t handle noise, change, shouty teachers, being asked questions etc. school broke her mental health. I think she would have been fine in schoolm20 years ago. It was a completely different environment.

Sorry I should have said, we are on the waiting list for EHCP. She is three academic years behind in some subjects. School are making some adjustments. I don't really care if she achieves academic success I just want her to be happy and not self harming, self medicating or dead.

we are on the waiting list for EHCP

EHCPs don’t have waiting lists. Has an EHCNA been made? If so, what week are you on?

In the meantime, if DD is unable to attend school, the LA must ensure she still receives a suitable full-time education.

I think it's important to have structure and school can provide that.

I also know that the longer a child doesn't go to school the more alienated they become and the harder it is to go back. Friendships are really important.

Please DM me if you want some personal advice, I can't give too much information on here as it'll be outing.

@Headfirstintothewild waiting list for the EP assessment I mean

P.s. I do know of parents that have home-schooled with other parents sharing the load, and their kids have done really well.

So pleased for you that you found the right spot for your daughter vidflex

I had a similar experience during the pandemic. My ASD dd loved being at home at first but got more and more depressed and isolated as time went on.

Is your DD primary or secondary?

You say that she is three academic years behind.

If that is in primary, then in general the children although they are aware of academic differences don't consider them very important. Most children are socially included (children with violent behaviour tend to be an exception to this) and considered part of the class and have friends.

This is not the case at secondary. Many secondaries now have mixed attainment in year 7 but the process of sats in year 6 makes many children who are behind feel like failures and this is obvious to the rest of the class as well. Everyone in the class will be aware of the academics and that the teachers and parents consider it important.

In secondary it is obvious who is behind (they don't do languages, they do extra maths and English, they are taken out of tutor time for extra lessons). This is socially very difficult and most kids react badly.

As it gets towards GCSEs as well many teachers will be saying how important it is to pass GCSEs and that you don't get a good job if you don't get good GCSEs. Kids who are going to fail their GCSEs know they are going to fail their GCSEs and they know that they are destined for a life of shit badly paid jobs because their teachers tell them so.

So ND kids (and NT kids) who are behind really struggle with their mental health at secondary because the whole system is set up to tell them they are a failure.

@theresapossuminthekitchen thanks yes this was the article https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/09/psychologist-anxiety-personality-trait-children-sick

Anyone asked for advice and information during the EHCNA must respond within 6 weeks. If the LA is not going to issue, they must inform you by week 16. If they are going to issue, they must do so by week 20 and in order to do that should send a draft by week 14.

A ‘waiting list’ and lack of EP time is not a lawful excuse for not comply with the legislation. If the LA cannot assess in-house within the statutory timescales, they should commission an independent assessment.

Email the LA reminding them of the statutory timescales. If that doesn’t work email the Director of Children’s Services informing them if they don’t act ASAP (if they have already breached the timescales) or breach the statutory timescales (if they haven’t already) you will be forced to pursue judicial review proceedings. Then, if that doesn’t work, you will need a pre-action letter now/when the LA breaches the timescales.

Structure can happen without school too. As can friendships. If a DC is unable to attend school, they don’t need to be isolated or lacking structure (although some actually no p/little structure in order to meet their needs).

She says: "The real solution is to help the young person break down what is scaring them, and help them face things gradually and kindly, step by step. The solution is to help young people see that the label of anxiety is a starting point to challenging themselves and being brave, not an endpoint that will dictate their limitations for ever."

I'm suspicious of the binary nature of this debate which I think is quite dangerous.

Very clearly there are children who don't do well in a school environment and HE has saved the lives of some, probably. There absolutely is a place for it, particularly with ND children.

But the blanket idea that school is bad and parents who keep their children in school are abusing them is profoundly wrong in my view. There are nuances which are being missed in this discussion. To name some that spring to my mind:

Firstly, it's not automatically true that allowing people to avoid something which causes them anxiety is a good thing. Sometimes it is essential. But sometimes learning to face and conquer the anxiety is ultimately a strengthening thing. I've gone through periods of really hating school, as has my DD. Ultimately, I've emerged stronger from having to push through them.

I am thankful never to have dealt with school refusal (yet). I don't want to minimise how tough this is and I know it's incredibly painful and difficult. But I do think that it's one of those things, like suicide, which can be catching. The more children become aware that other children are allowed to dodge school, the more they are allowed to feel that it is normal. While I think children who can't face school need to be treated with kindness and dignity, there has to be a red line and an understanding that it can't become a new normal.

For better or worse, school prepares you for adulthood in some way. Very few children are going to be able to avoid some sort of pressures, deadlines, friction in the workplace. For children for whom this is completely insurmountable, such as those who are ND or those who have been badly bullied it is cruel to force them into an environment where they are going to be bullied and judged. But I'm not sure it sends a great message to children that they can avoid things in life because they cause them anxiety and difficulty. At some point that protection is going to come to an end and having to face the cold reality of the world in your mid to late 20s after having been shielded from competition and friction is not great in my view.

For most children in most circumstances I believe school is a net positive. I totally understand why parents of children who have really struggled would feel quite dogmatic about the benefits of HE. But I think we ought to be careful of poisoning the well of perception for the broad mass of people.