AIBU to be surprised how many people on MN seem to be people pleasers?

[Mnk711]

Granted probably people who are people pleasers will post their dilemmas more often on here than people who are able to set healthy boundaries, as people pleasers are likely to encounter more problems they can't resolve themselves. But I'm shocked how many people seem unable to tell other people the truth about their behaviour being selfish, unpleasant, and rude. Are there really this many people who in real life are incapable of standing up and being counted?

I find it really sad that there are so many threads of people being walked all over by 'friends' or 'D'Ps who treat them horribly and OPs can't defend themselves. Or people who are surrounded by other people pleasers/those who just want an easy life who won't stand up in defence of what's right. And the same IRL - friends with a terrible boss or work colleague who everyone just tiptoes around and won't speak up.

AIBU to be surprised at the seeming prevalence of people pleasers?

“Over the years I decided being the real me was good enough and I didn't have to offer to do things for every person who dropped hints.
Its ok to say no to things you don't want to do.”

This ^

I used to be a people pleaser, but now I’m not because I no longer care if people don’t like me. I like me. I surround myself with kind, generous people, and the others can jog on.

For me, it’s evolved over time, but as soon as I hit 50 I stopped giving a shit about what others think.

I think a lot of women are. I am. Slowly improving.

What I’ve discovered as I’ve got older is underneath the layer of wanting people to like me, is a layer of not wanting conflict - partly because it’s hassle but partly because it triggers fight flight in me. I think that’s why it’s quite hard to change the behaviour - it’s a kind of self preservation. What I understand better now is that comes at a cost - not just chipping away at me but also kicking the can to worse hassle down the road.

I am shocked by the shit people put up with from partners though, so I agree with you to that extent - I expect my partner to be very nice to me.

I’d agree with this, but it’s tough to do, because it’s often driven by a really primal threat response I think.

Probably yet another thing that needs to be taught in schools.

Christ, wasn’t life easier before everyone turned into an amateur psychologist?

@theduchessofspork

I’d agree with this, but it’s tough to do, because it’s often driven by a really primal threat response I think.

Possibly. I think it depends a lot on your age. A people pleaser who was a teen or in their 20s I would cut a bit of slack because they haven't had the benefit of experience. If you're an older, independent woman or you have children (and yes it is almost always women because men aren't conditioned to believe having opinions is a bad thing), then its on you to take a bit of responsibility for not being walked over all the time.

I don't think you can raise children effectively if you're constantly looking over your shoulder worrying about what other people think of you. You're basically setting them up to be taken advantage of. There's no more excuse for this than there is for staying in an abusive relationship.

Well you're not going to see completely selfish people starting a thread on AIBU because it would never occur to them that anything they do is unreasonable. Mumsnet is a biased sample.

I think there are a lot of people who avoid conflict in real life and that makes for people-pleasing behaviours. The allotment thread for example. So many people seemed quite cross on that thread that the OP was exerting her right to access her own land freely. What about the sad stranger? What about people not liking you? What about your reputation in the village? Ad nauseum.

Being an adult is making some tough decisions that often don’t go down well with others. Grow up.

Absolutely there’s a difference. A considerate and supportive person will give and support, sure, but within the context of the ordinary give-and-take of a friendship that isn’t entirely based around one person being the helper/listener/service provider and the other being the ‘receiver’ of said services. The friendship exists independently of the ‘help’. These people see one another because of a mutual liking.

The people-pleasers of the type I’m specifically thinking of often end up friendless for two reasons.

On the one hand, they choose (often unconsciously) ‘friendships’ where the other person has a need they feel they can fulfil via ‘services”, because they don’t feel they are likeable enough in themselves to purely be sought out for their company. This means they often dedicate huge amount of time to helping people they fundamentally don’t actually much like, but who make them feel ‘needed’, but in turn, those people never even really get a chance to know them, because they present themselves as ‘service providers’, so they’re pretty invisible (eg a phonecall of an hour during which the people-pleasing listener only ever says ‘Oh, really?’, ‘That’s terrible!’ and ‘What did you do then?’) They’re then less likely to be included in fun, purely social situations by their helpees because they aren’t putting themselves out there as a personality with their own quirks, character, needs and priorities — their own interesting life.

And the other reason is that while the people-pleaser is dashing about babysitting, giving lifts, buying groceries for and spending hours on the phone providing a listening service etc, those hours, days and weeks are not being used to form actual friendships with people who value them for themselves.

And, to be honest, it’s going to put off potential friends. Watching someone bustle about after people they don’t fundamentally like or respect, often seething with unconscious resentment, turning down actual invitations because ‘Barbara always needs me to babysit on Saturday nights — she says she couldn’t do without me’ and ‘Oh, no, I’m not going on the hen weekend, she says we’ll do something separate another time!’ isn’t that attractive. It suggests someone with poor self-esteem, low boundaries, and a warped idea of human relationships. You’re putting people off by people-pleasing.

You could immediately see the people-pleasers on that recent thread about the poster who ended up making a cake for a total stranger at a loss, and then, when she couldn’t, was persuaded into buying and delivering a cake. They were the ones saying ‘You sound lovely, OP!’ The OP didn’t sound lovely. She sounded like someone who was afraid to say no, and didn’t value her own time and expertise.

Being an adult is making some tough decisions that often don’t go down well with others. Grow up.

It's all relative. One person's "making a tough decision that doesn't go down well with others" is another's "acting like a raging arsehole".

People are talking here as if there are two states of being – either you're a people pleaser, or you're not. But in fact it's a whole spectrum. It's possible to be nice to strangers (!) and yet not be a lifelong pushover who suffers from the fact. It's possible to maintain some boundaries without being selfish.

The trick lies in finding the balance.

@CutPiece

And the other reason is that while the people-pleaser is dashing about babysitting, giving lifts, buying groceries for and spending hours on the phone providing a listening service etc, those hours, days and weeks are not being used to form actual friendships with people who value them for themselves.

That's a very interesting point. I've known quite a lot of friendships over the years where there's a Alpha Girl and people pleaser duo dynamic. The Mean Girl desperately wants validation and needs a crew to back her up, doesn't want to be around people who challenge her. The people pleaser doesn't have any self-confidence and is so enraptured by the idea of being "chosen" by someone much more charismatic and confident that they are totally seduced and will do anything to keep Alpha Girl on side. You often see this at school where there's a bully and a sidekick trailing in her wake.

These friendships invariably come unstuck over time because they are essentially one sided if not abusive. Alpha Girl takes the piss, leans too heavily on People Pleaser, makes her run rings trying to keep Alpha Girl happy, telling her what to do, negging her and policing her other relationships. People Pleaser slowly becomes more aware of the asymmetry in the relationship, more resentful and eventually lashes out. And realises she has spent x months/years pandering to one person's needs and failed to cultivate more interesting and supportive friendships.

This is on my mind a lot just now. I have recently realised how much I suffer from the fawn response even though I know most people would see me as a confident, self-reliant person who isn’t afraid to express an opinion. But, i know i am a people pleaser and i struggle to assert boundaries. I do way too much listening and supporting and advising, but I can’t seem to stop. I “don’t sweat the small stuff” but that leads to people pushing the boundaries more and more and more until finally its got to be tackled. When i do take earlier action on more minor issues, people (possibly justifiably) reflect back that I’m being petty. I can’t find the balance! This happens mainly in my relationships with women (colleagues/friendships/relatives).

When someone clearly oversteps the boundaries, I make the effort to respectfully and calmly explain that it’s not ok but the vast majority of the time, they get disproportionately angry and it all gets blown out of proportion. They try to counter-attack and blame me for something/anything. I rarely get angry myself but often find myself de-escalating things even when I am in a position of power. Eg I pull up a team member on a clear misdemeanor, they get angry at me, I diffuse the situation so they don't end up losing their job. Sometimes I even intercede with others on their behalf and make excuses for them. Later, they pretend it hasn’t happened.

I must be doing something to attract those kind of people or elicit that kind of behaviour because it is such a common theme in my life, but I do not know how to fix it!

Rather than being the alpaha girl’s sidekick, I think I am more the rescuer and gravitiate towards victims who need “saving”. I help them (im often behaving like their therapist), often with genuine real issues, yet eventually they all take the piss and I’m left feeling manipulated. It’s shit and I don’t trust anyone these days.

Forgi me for singling you out because there are loads of these responses: but this is exactly what I mean about the selfishness of people pleasing. Your logic is “I’ve done everything for you, now what’s in it for me?”

Your response is itself manipulative. The solution to people pleasing isn’t just to become very cynical. It’s to trust yourself and stop expecting your validation to come from external sources.

People pleasers and cynics are often two sides of the same coin: there’s something very cynical and childish about flouncing off people because you didn’t get what you wanted from them. People are who they are and they like who they like. They are not obligated to repay you for over servicing them by being your friend.

Stop relying on other people to make you feel valued and you are likely to build better relationships.

I just can't handle conflict! It makes me feel sick and shaky and I hate it! So I will do anything to avoid it, which sometimes makes me a pathetic cabbage. I am the boss at work, and I want everyone to be happy, and am really bad at disciplining people (only do it when I absolutely have to). Most of my staff are lovely, but a few have taken the piss and that really upsets me.
I find it hard to say no to anyone! Friends, family, complete strangers...I guess it was probably the way I was brought up. I hate that anyone would dislike me or think badly of me. And now i discover from this thread that this actually makes me a terrible person to be treated with "contempt"..
My children ironically all have very good self esteem and are good at sticking up for themselves, so at least I haven't passed it on!

And now i discover from this thread that this actually makes me a terrible person to be treated with "contempt"..

Not at all! Don't think badly of yourself @ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs. Sometimes I wish there were more people in the world like you, who just want everyone to be happy.

There's a lot going on in the to-and-fro in this thread; it's not black and white. Remember, people who behave selfishly often want other people to behave just as selfishly, since it validates their own actions and makes them feel like they're right – "everyone else is doing it!" No one wants to be the outlier, or the bad guy. So they will look with disfavour on people who don't act like they do.

I dont know why this is a surprise or why it would even be unusual.

Humans are a social species, its in our DNA to be people pleasers to some degree because thats what makes society smooth, effective, functioning. If we were all completely self serving, then we would have died out as a species millions of years ago

Like any trait, when it goes askew, it can cause problems and the various social norms that different cultures create for themselves can help or hinder this, so some navigation is needed

But no its not a surprise so YABU

I think everyone draws the line in a different place, though. Some people who are proud of not being people pleasers are basically just arseholes who put themselves first 100% of the time. Some people claim to be people pleasers but really it is talk and no action. Some accuse others of being a people pleaser because they are pleasing someone else and won't do or say what the accuser wants.

As with everything you need a balance, and we tend to think our balance is the correct one.

@ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs

And now i discover from this thread that this actually makes me a terrible person to be treated with "contempt"..

Maybe contempt is too strong a word but it’s very difficult to respect people like this and it’s confusing because you never know where you stand.

Beyond a certain point you can’t be doing this if you’re an adult, a manager and a parent. I get that some people find this scary but part of being an adult is facing your responsibilities.

I agree 100% with this. People pleasers start threads because they think there is some magic phrase they can use to stop people taking advantage but at the same time will still portray them in an angelic light. There isnt.

Boundaries require assertive communication. I've seen so many threads on here from people pleasers who then get passive aggressively angry and upset because people are suggesting to put healthy boundaries in place but they cant/wont do it out of fear. But at the same time, their current situation is unbearable too. You cant have it both ways unfortunately. Therefore, it just goes round and round and round never changing.

Not dissing them as I used to be a PP but it involves accepting that you cannot do both at the same time and you have to face your fear of confrontation, and self reflect on your own self worth, otherwise nothing will ever change.

And now i discover from this thread that this actually makes me a terrible person to be treated with "contempt".

Of course you dont deserve contempt. But it's important to recognise that PP doesnt make you a "kind person", it makes you someone who has an agenda of getting everyone to think you're nice. Therefore, what you do isnt borne out of altruism, it's borne out of fear and a need for people to validate you. This isnt a criticism - I used to be one! I really recommend the book "not nice" by Aziz Gazipura - really helped me change x

Yeah, absolutely this. It’s a version of the ‘He’s different when he’s with me!’ trope. Until it becomes very clear s/he isn’t, and the people-pleaser has been deluding herself. Special status is only bought by special behaviour.

@Oncetwicethreetimesalady, yes, my mother is like this. I think she thinks it’s ‘being nice’, but in fact it’s a kind of (unconscious) power thing in that it makes her feel needed. She never thinks ‘Do I like this person and do I want to be friends with them?’, she chooses only on the basis of their need, and she invariably presents herself via services and listening, which makes her largely invisible to people with a lot of their own problems — illness, bereavement etc. Then she’s resentful when they forget her when things are better, or don’t include her in something purely social. I’m her daughter, and have known her all my life, but honestly, I couldn’t tell you what she’s fundamentally like, because she only ever says what she thinks the other person wants to hear. Her wishes, preferences, tastes etc remain a mystery, I suspect even to her.

It’s learned behaviour stemming from her childhood, but it’s meant she’s a very lonely, covertly angry person.

@CutPiece

Then she’s resentful when they forget her when things are better, or don’t include her in something purely social. I’m her daughter, and have known her all my life, but honestly, I couldn’t tell you what she’s fundamentally like, because she only ever says what she thinks the other person wants to hear. Her wishes, preferences, tastes etc remain a mystery, I suspect even to her.

I totally recognise this from my own mother who was very much as you describe. She’s basically a cautionary tale against being a people pleaser.

She spent most of her adult life pandering to the needs of others (primarily my overbearing dad) and I never heard her express an opinion of her own. She was constantly smoothing things over, avoiding difficult conversations and prioritising “niceness” over honesty and being a real person. She never really got the respect she felt she deserved because she didn’t have the balls to ask for it.

It actually left me resenting her a great deal even though she was in most respects a kind and loving woman. I was angry that she apparently never trusted me enough to show me who she really was. That’s how I feel about most people pleasers: there’s a fundamental dishonesty I can’t get past.

Yeah women just cooked and cleaned and knew their place and life was so much better eh?

I think girls are brought up to be people pleasers . Maybe not so muck now but definitely previously. And as most posters on Mumsnet are women it's not surprising.
I am a people pleaser I wish I wasn't though

Don’t be ridiculous.