Having academic parents is a burden

[Bouledeneige]

Between us my XH and I have 5 degrees. He's a professor and I'm a CEO in an industry body. We divorced when the kids were 7 and 5 (they are now 23 and 21) and they've had some tough times since then. As have many in their generation and as students during the pandemic.

My DD has a Fine Art degree and is transitioning to the next stage of her career. She is a brilliant person, good with people, emotionally intelligent, practical.

My DS has had considerable MH problems throughout his degree. He's just quit his Maths degree in the 3rd year. He's very bright and smart but struggles with pressure. He's lost his confidence and mojo.

What he's saying now is that he started to hate his Maths degree at the start of the 2nd year. He's extremely bright and Maths was always his thing - from year zero he just got it.

When DS quit his degree he said that he felt like he was only doing it because of other peoples expectations. His parents, his friends. But I always said there's more to life than a degree. So many people I know now who have good lives have no degree or qualifications. But university is such an easy middle class expectation post school of a route to work.

But I do think having parents who were so academic in their own lives was a burden not a blessing. Thoughts?

This. My parents were semi-literate while I was growing up, both having been taken out of school very early by parents who needed their earnings, and not only could they not help with homework, write sick notes, read school reports etc, they thought university was ‘only for rich people’ (period of grants) and did all they could to persuade me not to even apply, and were embarrassed and displeased when I won a scholarship. That was extremely tough. Even ‘being allowed’ to stay on at school past 15 was tough.

Nah, it’s not having academic parents.

controversial statement alert - I think that the ‘staying power’ of the younger generation is just different to ours. I realised halfway through a STEM degree that my chosen subject wasn’t really for me, it just didn’t excite me the way it did some of my peers. But I’d invested so much at that point that it just made sense to me to hang on and see it through (and I had some mental health issues, a parent with cancer, with multiple follow up surgeries and their life hanging in the balance, likely undiagnosed neurodivergence).

I’m not saying people shouldn’t quit, but I think it’s easier to quit now than it was then, socially and with greater parental support. I complained to my folks and my tutors and the line very much was ‘just do what you can to get through it’. I certainly don’t think I would have quit at Easter of year 3 unless failing (which might be the case). In fact, I stumbled through my finals as we had lost someone from my friendship circle in tragic circumstances, so definitely had reason to - we all just ploughed on across the finish line.

To add to the above: I’m not sure this difference is a bad thing, there are plenty of things that Gen Z bring to the workplace that is refreshing, but they have a totally different mentality to our generation.

He’ll take a couple years out and either come back to something similar or do something else.

Camp America sounds like a good idea

I honestly think you are overthinking - I wouldn’t make so much of this - university isn’t a career unless you’re an academic -degrees are easy enough to pick up again.

@Bouledeneige , you sound a very loving parent. Your boy will be fine.

There are lots of different versions of this that I know of though.
DH is from a family where everyone left school asap, he got himself into uni and then a PhD. He was never supported in that choice. He’s bitter as with some interest/support he might have done medicine (which he would have been a really good for him).
My parents grew up poor but got into uni. My siblings were useless so there was pressure on me to go, which I did. But really I should have gone to art school, that was seen as a failure though.
DH has a friend who thought she should have done much better at uni and her parents let her down (he said she was very average). So she has pushed her children. She wanted the eldest to do medicine and pushed and pushed, she didn’t get in, got a place in a related course and dropped out after a month after a breakdown.

I don’t think it’s you, I think no one knows what they’re doing sometimes

Agree completely.

Wouldn’t know. Having parents who aren’t very bright presents its challenges, too.

Apropos, my DD is the only member of my Asian family on both sides who is not a doctor, a lawyer or an engineer. You can imagine the pressure.

Absolutely. While there are parents who are terrible, the majority aren't and its infantile to blame them for everything. Its constantly a theme on these boards.

Also, uni is far far easier now - easier to access, grades are higher and you get a lot more help. Mid 20s need to stop whining and get on with it

Both me and my ex have PhDs. I am a psychologist and he works in a STEM related field. Neither set of our parents went to university. My parents were very relaxed about whether I went or not. They are proud of my achievements but also proud of my siblings who didn't attend university. My ex's parents were really happy for him to do a bachelor degree, but weren't supportive beyond that as they felt he should be earning.

I have one child who isn't sure if uni is the right course for them/ is still deciding. This child is a very chilled character.

My oldest child is currently an undergraduate at a very prestigious university. They have recently discussed the pressure of having academic parents. They have suggested that the pressure to do 'as well' as one's parents comes internally. They know that as parents we genuinely want them to be happy and fulfilled but this isn't enough for them (I add 'yet' to the end of this sentence as I think with maturity and life experience the value of contentment over external validation of 'success' will be better recognised).

I have pointed out to this child their thesis that internal pressure to be academically successful arises from having academic parents isn't universal as their sibling doesn't experience it. The response to this was, 'well, it applies to anyone who gives a toss about their life'! They experience envy over their sibling's laid back attitude, but this is over-ridden to anxiety their sibling ending up destitute as they will never get a job (catastrophising).

For me, all this points to a biopsychosocial explanation whereby the environment and individual differences account for behaviour. The good thing about this model is that it points to changes we can make in the environment.

OP, it sounds like your son has had, and is having, a tough time. I expect (as is the case with all of us), your history and your parenting will have contributed both positively and negatively to where he is now.

I think a really key factor now is him having ways forward. Camp America etc. sounds great. He has his whole life ahead of him, and some past experiences to draw upon about what has and hasn't worked for him to date. He may decide, at a future point, that he wants to get a degree, and if he has insight into what is different at that point in time to make this a positive option for him, that could be great for him. He may find another path and never look back.

Maths at degree level is different to a levels. And if he didn't do exams at A level then it would be even harder.
If he managed to pass 1 and 2 year though it's amazing. But I guess he wasn't ready for the areas of final year.
I think academic parents may add pressure. But any successful ones will.

It has occurred to me that there is another reason why Maths at University is a 'special case'. It is often said that Maths is a 'use it or lose it' subject and it is recommended that students to go directly from school to University. They have no chance to have a gap year or period of reflexion beforehand.

OP, YABU in that 'academic' parents isn't necessarily more of a burden compared to 'business parents', 'tiger moms' or any other class of parents that make their kids fit a mold. Even in your OP, you said that the expectations came from other people, not yourselves.

In 2024, academia isn't very well-paid and very competitive with years of short-term contracts, moving around. Many (like doctors and teachers) discourage their kids from going down that route. Sort of 'reverse' pressure actually.

IMO the bigger issue is society, not just people around you but LinkedIn, social media, full of people achieving younger and younger. It's really difficult. Even for me, an adult in my early 30's with it 'made' (married, good job, the works). I've always avoided comparing myself to other people but the algorithms are relentless and anxiety inducing.

There's a fine line between 'inspiring' people and straight up inducing anxiety/FOMO. I almost had a breakdown and felt so much better once I deleted all the apps. When I am 'ready', and WANT to take a step forward/research, I will. But otherwise these things constantly make you feel like you're not good enough, and should be doing a million different things! I know that in real life people have taken lots of different paths, etc but it's hard to explain, the pressure of social media.

I have a degree from a prestigious university, someone else will have that AND a million £ start-up, etc etc it just never ends. It was really the latter that I found hard to cope with just being 'bright' wasn't enough!

BTW a degree IMO is very easy to get. You can eve go to universities with C's and D's so I wouldn't say it's a difficult 'middle class' expectation. A degree in a difficult subject from a prestigious university is another matter entirely.

OP, I thought about your thread a bit more. I feel for your ds; I think he is finding this decision hard, and it's possibly driven by anxiety I do know high achievers who have decided to leave university at the eleventh hour and I think there is more to it, as you suggest., and it could be related to how the student perceives parental expectation. Try as we might our children do pick up on the difference between our expectations,however subconscious, and their own performance or projected performance. Perhaps your ds felt a 2.2 wouldn't be worth it and he would be letting himself down (But I know that a 2.2 from Durham in Maths, for example, gets you top jobs...it's a prestige course)

I begged my ds1 to defer a year to complete his degree as I felt he wasn't doing very well and suffering mental health difficulties during COVID...but he was determined to plod on...I dont think he cared ENOUGH about the result and ended up with a 2.2 from a non Russell group uni, and was then disappointed as he couldnt get onto a MA course that interested him. I myself did much the same in my third year 40 odd years ago and lived in humiliation/felt defined by my poor result; I should have deferred or dropped out. But for better or for worse we didn't feel there was any alternative and we did both just plod on at the time.

So it isn't always the case that staying the course IS always the right decision. Choosing the wrong subject is not the end of the world either as long as you learn from that, that it's alright to make mistakes and move on, rather than just avoiding difficulty per se.

So tbh failure isn't much fun, you have to be pretty thick-skinned to not care. And your son is used to being good at Maths, of course he doesn't want to suddenly be less than good.

Low expectations are just as bad as having too high expectations. Should she just follow in the same footsteps as you and your circle for no reason?

What if she did want to go to university?

Hi senua I think Maths is a special case. It is so abstracted and challenging that it needs continuous absorbed focus and that's what he struggled with. As I mentioned he really stopped loving his degree from the second year onwards having loved maths all his life. Sadly I was blocked from his life at that point so I couldn't talk about it with him then. Taking a break in his third year did not help and there was no personal support from tutors or the department as far as I can fathom for his return. I might be wrong as his mental state and attitude also blocks him from seeking help and support from friends and family and elsewhere. I think universities have become businesses and degree factories now - there's much less personal attention.

The fact was he was likely to get a 3rd or fail. Even when he completed this term he would have had a retake to do over the summer - I just think this hung over him as never ending pressure. When you get to be 60 a few months doesn't seem like a long time - when you're hating every moment at 21 and in a state of stress maybe it feels like a lifetime.

That all said I had a big party last night and he surprised me by turning up. I thought he would find it hard seeing lots of old family friends and them asking what are you doing now. But he was great, openly and confidently chatting to everyone about what he wants to do next and a couple of friends in the finance world offered chats and connections. Of course I recognise all the privilege in this statement and in the premise of the thread, it's there and it's the truth. But he's my child and he's suffered emotionally and his confidence has taken a battering. All you ever want is for your child to be happy.

'No reason'? In 2024 university is extremely expensive, parents are expected to shell out thousands of pounds a year. And with so many graduates, there's a lot of competition for plum graduate jobs.

Wanting your DC to choose a course wisely , rather than just get 'a degree, any degree' or go because all their friends are going, isn't low expectations. It's extremely sensible given the level of effort and financial investment from various parties.

This generation of university students will be working for at least 40 years, if not more. Why the rush to get them into university? Nothing wrong with waiting and getting some work experience. And if they go as a mature student they might be assessed independently of their parents' income, and get the full loan.

If PP said 'don't go, because degree is useless' that's low expectations. But not what she said.

Absolutely allypally33. As OP hinted in the post before yours, "universities have become businesses and degree factories now". Prospective students are responding in the same vein and doing a personal cost/benefit analysis. Nowt wrong with that.

I grew up with a df who worked in construction, had a chip we on his shoulder and sneered at “pen pushers” who didn’t live in the “real world”.

I was in my thirties before I started to understand that this was his way of dealing with the struggle of having a gifted intellect, a lifetime of bad luck and no educational opportunities. He was a completely different person when he retired (due to severe physical problems) and could read to his hearts content. He had a second career as an investor, and his opinions were sought out by people investing exponentially more.

But in my teens/early twenties I struggled with the internalised messages that he wouldn’t approve or respect my academic accomplishments, to the extent that I nearly missed how proud he was of me.

If you’re struggling with your ds’ decision to leave college, that’s fair enough but don’t make him carry that burden for you. His job is to figure out a path for his own life and there are lots of ways to make it.