Are my DC broken?

[sparklyrainbowunicorndancing]

Two DC, ages 9 and 6.

Neither come looking for a parent when we are out and another child upsets them. They’re more likely to get into a fight.

My youngest doesn’t come running to a parent if they hurt themselves, they just stand and shout and cry.

Both come out with filthy and inappropriate language daily. They will call each other dumb, idiot, moron, say shut up. DH and I have told them off countless times for this, very firmly and seriously. It’s forgotten the next day.

They also both often act really silly and over the top in front of other people. Youngest will say totally stupid things but that are actually inappropriate- willies, bums etc. My eldest has learned a lot of swear words in the last year and will take any opportunity to talk about a time when X said “the F word/S word”. (Grateful they don’t actually say the full words at least). This one does pick up a lot from school and friends with older siblings, but they relish anything that’s remotely inappropriate and will keep coming back to it.

I just don’t see other kids acting like this. We are a nice family, DH and I are good people, we don’t swear or use words like idiot, shut up in front of them. It’s seriously embarrassing.

I know people will ask “what are the consequences…” etc. I don’t see the point in giving completely unrelated consequences (such as loss of screens) unless it’s something VERY serious, but they get pulled up every time, told off firmly everytime, I have explained to the older one in particularly that his friend’s parents will hear him say these things, and they won’t invite him on play dates or want their children to play with him. I’ve explained to them that they are getting older and there’s serious consequences for bad behaviour the older they grow.

They don’t watch YouTube or have access to tablets. DC1 does have a Switch and plays games that have violent undertones I suppose, but they’re age appropriate - Super Mario, Sonic, Lego Marvel. They watch things that again do have fighting but age appropriate- mainly Lego Ninjago or Lego Superheroes, and Sonic. I’ve banned films like Home Alone but I’ve been surprised how much unpleasant language eg shut up, idiot, is in films like Toy Story!

Nothing works.

How do they get on at school? Have they always seemed different to their peers? Was there any early life trauma eg postnatal depression, other circumstances that might have impacted on very early development? Is there any history of Neurodevelopmental conditions in the family?

You need to attempt to deal with their behaviour. Ask school for support. Do they have any SEND?

I wouldn't say they are broken, but I wouldn't tolerate that behaviour either.

Do you praise them much? My children are younger but I was a primary school teacher in a past life and the most important thing I learnt with children whose behaviour is challenging is "to catch them being good" - e.g. playing nicely, kind language, breathing - literally anytime you see them making even sort of a good decision heap on the praise.

What sometimes happens is there becomes a cycle of negativity and it feels (to the child) that theres no point being goo "good" because no one notices anyway.

Regarding screens, if it were me I would take if off them, and they have to earn it by behaving the way you expect (set these expectations out).

Children thrive where there are boundaries and consequences- when expectations are laid out clealry and consistently. Sometimes a "telling off" isn't enough of learning curve.

They sound quite normal, no?

Respectfully, they are seeing/learning this behaviour somewhere, and they need to learn that it’s inappropriate somehow.

My nephew was getting a bit like this and nobody could work out where it was coming from until they cut out Youtube/certain shows as well as some games and the behaviour massively reduced. He wasn’t actually watching/playing anything that was inappropriate for his age but it was just a LOT for him and it’s overstimulating.

You may not see the point in consequences but as you can see from your children’s continued behaviour- they don’t see any point in you just “pulling them up” on it.

I think maybe they’re at the stage that being told off all the time means nothing to them. I would try a while of minimal screens, and lots of positive praise and attention. Ignore the shut ups etc and then when they speak nicely, tell them how good they are and how proud you are of how beautifully they behaved.

Don’t forget children are nearly always worse with their own parents / families. If they are okay at school I wouldn’t be too concerned to be honest. I think some of it is personality dependent. My DS is only 3 but certainly doesn’t back away from a confrontation! I am the complete opposite!

With respect (and I do sympathise - some kids are just more.prone to this than others),I think if there are no serious consequences then it's not really a surprise that this behaviour continues.

My kids are slightly older but they know we wouldn't tolerate continual inappropriate language like that or bad behaviour. They're well aware of swear words and sometimes watch sweary programmes with us (Taskmaster etc) but we've made it extremely clear that just because they see it there, doesn't mean it's appropriate for them to use, and it would be a BIG deal if they used it to grandparents etc. Mine didn't particularly go through a willies and bums are hilarious stage though, so I didn't have to deal with that.

What are their school friends like? Do they have older cousins who might be modelling bad behaviour, or could model good behaviour if needed?

What's their life like in general?

With mine, I find that their behaviour is at its best when they get a lot of fresh air and exercise and when they have had some full attention from a parent (e.g. reading to them or playing a game with them).

And their behaviour is at its worst when they have spent a lot of time inside on screens - as a PP said, it's not necessarily about the content of what's on the screen but more generally it seems to have a negative effect on them

I don’t see the point in giving completely unrelated consequences (such as loss of screens) unless it’s something VERY serious

There it is. Right there in your post. There are zero consequences for this behaviour. I’m going to assume you have two boys, they need consequences every time. I have two boys who know that I mean business. They are by no means perfect but they don’t swear and behave inappropriately outside the house. If they act like feral animals they lose something, like screens, words will go over their heads. I still use words, but words do not cut the mustard alone, they are to be used as explanations alongside the consequences.

You only seem to see consequences as punishments for negative behaviour. What about positive consequences? Privileges and bigging up your children for good behaviour? Encourage them to treat others or talk about others with kindness and compassion (even if they don't understand that word). Recognise good behaviour.

"That was really lovely how you two were getting on earlier, I'm treating you both to ice creams this afternoon" or "Thanks for being kind earlier even though you were upset you couldn't go out. Me and Daddy are very proud of you".

Kids needs positive contact with you, not just a lack of punishment when they're managing to not squabble.

Yes two boys! I didn’t think it was important to mention but to be honest, I think it’s clear from my post even if I hadn’t accidentally referred to eldest as he. I’m from a family of 3 girls and I absolutely wouldn’t have dared behave like this by these ages. But I also had underage sex, didn’t feel I could tell my parents when my friends were ostracising me and still have issues I’m working through as a 40 year old, so I’m not going to model the way I was raised.

It’s not that my DC have no consequences, they do. It’s UNRELATED consequences I don’t see the point in. If they are messing around on their scooters on the way to school in a way that’s dangerous, they get off the scooter and wheel it to school, and the next day they will walk, no scooter. If they don’t tidy away their toys at the end of the day when asked, those toys are removed for a period. If they mess around for too long at bedtime, then there’s no time for a story.

It’s difficult to establish a firm consequence for one saying “X punched me in the Willy!” In front of a school friend when I suspect it’s probably a socially anxious/showing off/not knowing what to do in public type behaviour, I just don’t know how to “punish” it naturally. Stop them from speaking?! The natural consequence is that the parents who overhear won’t want their DC to play with mine.

I suspect we are a household of neurodivergence. DC1 definitely has inattentive ADHD traits. At school they are both described as caring and kind, albeit the eldest doesn’t always listen and do what he’s asked.

The inappropriate language in front of others doesn’t tend to be in front of close family, grandparents etc. It’s in front of school friends if we bump into them at the playground on the weekend, or if DC1 makes a new friend, he almost tries to impress them with the fact he has these stories about when a schoolmate used the F word. To reiterate he doesn’t actually say the swear words, he got in trouble once a year ago for writing swear words (being silly with a friend) and got an absolute bollocking and lost screens for a fortnight. I save those types of consequences for big bad behaviour like that.

I take PP’s point about earning screens though. I enforce this is they’re difficult on the school runs morning or afternoon and have made the point that screens after school are earned by going to and from school nicely. It’s difficult though because both DH and I work full time, and as I suspect DC1 especially is ND, I appreciate he flops in front of the TV to unwind after school. He does sports most nights so at most he watches 40 minutes of TV on weeknights, but that’s not every weeknight. They are also sometimes collected from school by grandparents and it feels unfair to impose screen bans then.

The majority of the language 100% comes from school, DC1’s class. DC1 will tell me so-and-so said this is inappropriate, is it, and will spell a word to me, or make stupid noises. His friends are a mixed crowd, some lovely, some badly behaved and rude and we don’t have play dates with the latter. Almost all have older brothers and a lot comes from those (and I know even the “nice” older brothers have passed on a lot, children learn things and tell their siblings, who tell their friends…).

I take the point about privileges too. I do really try and remember to praise as much as I can but sometimes we are in such a rush for school/work and I do have to hurry them along/call orders to them. Last week DH was away for a whole week on a school trip (teacher) and DS1 was so helpful in the mornings, getting breakfast for he and DS2, I said if he carries on all week I’d give him an extra few pounds pocket money, but he just acted silly then with the money in front of him so I ended up taking it away.

It’s not that my DC have no consequences, they do. It’s UNRELATED consequences I don’t see the point in. If they are messing around on their scooters on the way to school in a way that’s dangerous, they get off the scooter and wheel it to school, and the next day they will walk, no scooter. If they don’t tidy away their toys at the end of the day when asked, those toys are removed for a period. If they mess around for too long at bedtime, then there’s no time for a story

These all seem fair and sensible consequences to me (except maybe making them walk the next day with the scooter? But it depends on how silly/dangerous they are being I guess)

It’s difficult to establish a firm consequence for one saying “X punched me in the Willy!” In front of a school friend when I suspect it’s probably a socially anxious/showing off/not knowing what to do in public type behaviour, I just don’t know how to “punish” it naturally. Stop them from speaking?! The natural consequence is that the parents who overhear won’t want their DC to play with mine.

To me, "x punched me in the willy" wouldn't need a consequence because 1)if they've just been punched they are being factual 2) is willy a bad word? I would say boys around their peers do talk about willies a huge amount - I'm not sure this is the hill I would be willing to die on tbh. Absolutely swearing, but I think saying willy to friends is ok? Happy to be corrected though ☺️

DS1 was so helpful in the mornings, getting breakfast for he and DS2, I said if he carries on all week I’d give him an extra few pounds pocket money, but he just acted silly then with the money in front of him so I ended up taking it away

I don't think "bad" behaviour should cancel out good tbh. Taking away his money seems very harsh - what was his silly behaviour?

I also think "carrying on good behaviour all week" is a huge task for a 9 year old - i think i would reward by day at this stage

Could it be your expectations for behaviour aren't matching up with what they think is "good behaviour"? They are still young children who are learning.

Sorry if any of this comes across as harsh btw - totally not my intention I'm just thinking out loud 🩷

Not sure how i quoted you! Sorry!!

That didn’t sound harsh at all, thank you.

The Willy thing, yes totally just silliness and if I overheard my DC saying silly things like that when alone with friends I wouldn’t say anything, just kids being kids. But there was no context, I don’t think anyway, unless the child in question had in fact hit my child in the Willy previously! It almost always tends to be in front of parents, it’s mortifying. My eldest had form for this, he still does it but his has evolved into “Fred, do you know this song, it has the F word in it”. Again always in front of parents. I’m frequently mortified on the school run. My youngest has recently started acting really silly when, I think, he’s uncomfortable socially - when we’re waiting to go into school, for example. He didn’t used to act like this.

I take your points about expectations, I probably do have high standards, but on the flip side my DC often seem to be the worst behaved!

No they don't. Getting into fights? Disgusting language, behaving feral??
Scary that there's parents who think this is normal.
I have a dc and friends around this age, lots of play dates and haven't seen this vile behaviour. It's not normal.

This right here. I have a boy too, lots of boys around all the time and none of this. Op it's your parenting, you sound weak and wet. They don't sound like they have any respect for you or anyone else.

Hmmm are you more concerned over the fact it's infront of parents rather than their behaviour itself? Fwiw I wouldn't be embarrassed by it - its on the extreme end granted but I'm fairly sure all boys talk about willys/swearing etc.

From what you've posted it's almost as if the boys know these words have power over you. Could you try saying "we don't talk about willies/swear words etc in public because its rude but you can have 5 mins where you can say anything you want? Even swear words" set a timer and let him get it all out of his system?

I think your youngest is copying his older brother and I think you are right on the nose about their behaviour coming from a place of insecurity and social awkwardness. I used to run a social skills club in school twice a week (once for children diagnosed with ASD, once for anyone who could use some help forming relationships) is this something your school runs? Have a chat with their teachers to see if they can support with building positive relationships and improving their self esteem

@iLovee in a way yes, it’s about knowing when things can slide and when not, isn’t it? In the way we all do, we might talk a certain way in front of close family and friends, but not at work. They (well, eldest anyway) seem to automatically know not to say these things in front of teachers, or grandparents, so I don’t think it’s a complete lack of awareness, but also they seem oblivious to the presence of unknown adults.

@Molonty I am far from weak or wet, if anything I think I’m too harsh sometimes. The reason I don’t use UNRELATED consequences is because they’ve been tried and tested over years and it teaches (my) children nothing. One tells his brother to shut up at 7:30am so he loses his after school TV at 4pm? There’s no association there whatsoever and no lesson to be learned. Whereas when my youngest went through a phase of refusing to get out of the bath when asked, and was lifted out instead of eventually climbing like they wanted, a large tantrum followed but they now always get out of the bath when asked first time.

And I know it’s not all boys, this is my point. I’ve said in my OP that I don’t see others behaving like this.

No. This is categorically not 'normal' unless you don't discipline your children, then it's normal

The reason I don’t use UNRELATED consequences is because they’ve been tried and tested over years and it teaches (my) children nothing. One tells his brother to shut up at 7:30am so he loses his after school TV at 4pm? There’s no association there whatsoever and no lesson to be learned.

@sparklyrainbowunicorndancing

I think this is where you are getting tripped up. Developmentally they have moved beyond the way you are trying to parent this issue, so what you are doing is no longer effective. Children (fortunately!) aren’t static. They change and grow, and your tactics and parenting have to change and grow along with them. You have to evaluate, try new things, and see what is different and what they are or are not ready for.

You are correct that this isn’t very effective with very young children; developmentally they would struggle to connect the two or to understand a delayed consequence. Their sense of time is not well-developed. But that is 3 and 4 year-olds, not 6 and 9 year-olds.

As children grow and develop this does become effective because they become more capable of thinking about and understanding past and future. In fact, it is vital for their growth and maturity that they do learn to consider potential consequences for their actions. This includes situations exactly like the one you described: “If I tell my brother to shut up, I might not be able to watch TV after school. I want to do that, so I’m not going to tell him to shut up.” This is one way that they develop self-control and impulse control, by thinking about the potential outcomes of what they are considering doing. So while a 3 year-old is only going to have a tenuous connection with a delayed consequence, a 9 year-old will not only understand but will also think back (reflect, another developmentally important skill) and weigh up whether or not it was worth it. Especially if you are matter-of-fact about it: Nope! No TV because you were unkind to your brother this morning. And then move on and ignore any attempt to draw you into a discussion about it.

It’s really common for parents to get in a bit of a rut and not realize that their kids are progressing, so don’t beat yourself up about it. But do start treating them like they are a bit older and more reasonable, because they are! Particularly the nine year-old. I think you will be surprised at how different the outcome can be, especially when you’re consistent with it.

Yeah you need to toughen up and not overthink the consequences thing. “If you say that word again, no switch for the rest of the day” works wonders with mine (girls, roughly the same ages)

@WhichEllie has put it perfectly, I think.

Thanks @WhichEllie . Friends and family always say “no point doing unrelated consequences” etc too so interesting, I’ve always thought it’s still the same.

I’ll give it a try. DS1 did tell me today that his friend said something inappropriate again in school and this time he told him not to say it, ive been drumming in the message that it’s not cool or clever to talk about swearing etc.

@iLovee

Brilliant advise.

This is very true and so easy to fall into, they can't get out of it.

I would suggest taking them out or keeping them apart with different activity for as long as possible, love bomb, try and do what I love says.