Have you damaged the life of a child?

[LargeSquareRock]

The Cass Review into child’s gender services is out. For those of us who have been following this for years, it really is a No Shit Sherlock moment. All of our beliefs and fears for what is happening to vulnerable children (mainly autistic, traumatised or same-sex attracted girls) is set out in black and white.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/

So,

Every doctor, psychologist and therapist who ignored evidence and went along with this medical scandal and who set a child on the path of no return to future infertility, osteoporosis, increased heart disease and dementia risk, lower IQ and foreshortened life span;

Every school counsellor who felt they were Rosa Parks, whispering secrets to vulnerable kids and damaging the parent-child relationship;

Every teacher who adopted gender ideology and actively poured poison into their student’s ears;

Every teacher who shut down a student who wasn’t toeing the party line;

Every teacher who made girls feel ashamed for not being happy about sharing toilets with boys;

Every social worker who damaged the parent-child relationship and threatened parents with consequences for not affirming their child’s trans identity;

Every child’s friend’s “cool” parent who claimed their home was a sanctuary from the child’s bigoted parents;

Every autism organisation staff member or volunteer who swallowed the nonsense whole and damaged a generation of autistic girls;

Every person who cut off friends when they raised concerns about trans ideology and kids;

Every Facebook group moderator who blocked members raising the mildest questioning of gender ideology, then out up the sickening virtue signalling post about “no hate allowed”;

Every single person who chanted “protect trans kids” without knowing a single thing about the issues;

Every sports coach who allowed boys into the girl’s teams and berated objecting parents and girls as bigots;

Every separated parent going along with the child’s trans nonsense to get back at the other parent.;

Everyone who has ever donated to Mermaids;

Every single person who blindly believed that a parent’s doubts about transitioning their child were based on transphobia and bigotry, not love and concern;

Everyone who has ever told a child that society hates them because of their trans identity;

Every parent who didn’t do their due diligence and happily went along with their child and who enjoyed the attention of having a trans child;

Every politician (pretty much all of them) who decided to ride this one out, even though they could see the harm occurring in real time

This disaster, ruining the lives of a generation of children, is on you.

After 20 + years involved in roles which require “active listening “ skills in extremely stressful situations I can honestly say that it is very rare to find someone that can exist in this neutral / non judgemental space.
I won’t even begin consider the dynamic relationship between verbal and non verbal communication and the implications that this may have.

Jane, the non binary counsellor who prefers the pronouns they/ them.

India, the trans counsellor (who was called John last year at school) but now prefers the pronouns she / her

etc

This report is the GC version of the Sewell report on Race and Ethnic Disparities commissioned by the Conservatives in 2021.

Later critics responded in the BMJ Opinion that "the report’s conclusions, recommendations, and cherry-picked data to support a particular narrative shows why it should have been externally peer reviewed by independent health experts"

I confidently expect the Cass report to receive similar expert criticism.

What topics are not allowed in AIBU, then? All sorts gets discussed on here.

It's a thread about children's health, seems pretty average for Mumsnet.

And why so rude?

Comparing someone to Rosa Parks is a figurative phrase. It's used ironically. Like she thinks she's 'queen of Sheba' or he 'thinks he's Brad Pitt.'

Absolutely, it's immortalised in song, as Shania said 'OK you're Brad Pitt.. that don't impress me much...'

A true classic.

Will it, aye.

@Helleofabore,
Complications have occurred 'in isolation' as a result of 'bad luck' over a period of many years (DVTs, development of type 2 diabetes, vaginal atrophy and subsequent chronic UTIs, recurring infections and poor healing following top surgery and most recently under rheumatology investigation for onset of autoimmune disease with chronic pain) and have been treated separately. DN is under a gender-reassignment medical team (not in the UK) and, as far as I know, there is no sense that there is anything to investigate; these are all known potential side-effects and unfortunately, they have all occurred in the same individual. My poor DN.

Thanks Eve. Your poor DN alright. I did know about the diabetes risk and the auto immune risk but I had forgotten.

I hope that she has mental health support because all those issues are significant to have to deal with.

Yes, they should never have been lead to believe so firmly that was likely the route to their salvation. You're not wrong to worry about them, but I see them also as potentially the luckiest, potentially saved from going down the wrong treatment pathway. Adults with half a brain will be able to present it as an enormously positive thing, which should have a beneficial impact on their mental health.

I actually worry much more about the children and adults who have already suffered some of the irreversible side effects of hormones, blockers and surgery, and the people around them that allowed/encouraged it because they were taken in by insidious ideology.

I think both groups are profoundly vulnerable. They've each been screwed over by the inappropriate provision and ideology around hormone treatment for kids, but in different ways.

I don't agree that they are the luckiest.

Just because they may have been saved from the physical harm that these interventions will cause does not mean that there won't be any psychological harm caused by being denied these interventions after potentially years of being led to believe that they would save them from a lifetime of misery. These children are in the mindset that puberty is going to be a horribly traumatic event causing permanent changes to their bodies which will fix them in the wrong body for life and mean that they have no hope of having an adult body which corresponds to their gender identity. You and I may view this as nonsense, but that is not how they see it, or how they have been encouraged to see it by people who ought to know better.

The luckiest are the ones who will never have any expectation that this is a treatment option for them.

yes, you're right. the damage starts long before treatment.

Agree with this. In 10 years, this horror will be flushed from the medical system and the medical pathway won’t be sold as a quick fix. But there will be thousands and thousands of children and young adults right now who have been mislead to believe that medical transition will be their salvation. They will fall into a black hole of no medical treatment and no systems yet in place for holistic non-medical treatment.

OP, I fully agree, and honestly reading your post and the responses has been a relief. My daughter starts primary soon and I've been so worried about how to handle this as she grows up. But we need to find a way to talk to True Believers, and everyone who has made this part of their identity.

Yesterday I felt like this was finally a turning point in the discussion, but already the backlash has begun to discredit the report and attack anyone who believes it. It is terrifying, but if we tell people they are evil and stupid, they will defend themselves and not listen. I have no idea how to go about this really, I'm always putting my foot in my mouth and getting people's backs up, but it's clear the conversation is what's getting in the way of progress towards truth and appropriate care.

I hope that this empowers LGBTQ people who don't agree with the current thinking and rhetoric to speak up. I wonder if change will come more gradually through small conversations behind closed doors, trans friends revealing their feelings and personal experiences to friends, because really they're the only ones who have access to a non-hostile audience with the people whose minds we need to change, and it's still far too scary to say anything in public, or even in a group. It is very very hard for people who have gone very far down a path and made it part of their identity to backtrack, because it begins with admitting devastating truths to yourself and unpicking the core of who you are.

I have been thinking about writing an article about my own experiences of thinking I was a boy as a child, and how that has made me so scared by all of this, because I am definitely 100% female, but I don't know if anyone would be interested/publish it, and I'm scared of the response. I am so grateful I wasn't born in these times. Knowing who I was as a child, I can easily see how this phase could have led me to seek out reassignment if surrounded by the current climate, and I know that would have been the wrong choice for me with devastating effects. I have told my friends about this and I think it has had an impact on them, but I've got the feeling that people who aren't close to me think I'm making it up to support a viewpoint. It just shows how very hard it is to get anyone to listen. People choose a tribe and they'll do anything to defend the identity they built to be part of it, not because they're evil, but because they are human (and imho because critical, analytical thought and science in general has been under attack for generations).

Yes. And a huge part of the problem is that, having said "we will no longer recommend or prescribe these kinds of treatments", the NHS still doesn't have the capacity to offer an alternative.

There aren't hundreds of therapists ready and waiting to help these young people navigate the path to self acceptance. There weren't enough therapists as it was, and the ones who already exist have largely been practising an affirmation only approach for the last few years. Are they really going to be able to do a U-turn now and say, "Puberty blockers aren't the answer, self acceptance is"? Can they even say, "We recommend not changing your name or pronouns at this stage because you're still very young and your identity is still developing" to the same patients they've been affirming for the last few years?

I don't think so.

So my concern is that, as you say, these very vulnerable patients are now in a black hole.

Some of those patients will have parents who are relieved about this development and will lean on the Cass report to justify not affirming their children's gender identities but finding other ways to help them navigate the tricky teenage years.

Other patients will have parents who are all over social media as we speak, wringing their hands about how access to life saving healthcare is being removed, and are willing to seek out private prescriptions from the likes of Helen Webberley or even go abroad for puberty blockers if they are banned altogether in the UK, feeding the "most oppressed and discriminated against" narrative in their children's heads.

I fear that for some of these patients, the removal of an NHS approved path to the treatment they want will make them even more vulnerable by pushing them into the clutches of people operating in an entirely unregulated way.

Overall, for younger children who are yet to present with any kind of transgender identity and are not already fixated on the idea that they can take puberty blockers to prevent them from developing into an adult of the wrong sex, I think the Cass review will be instrumental in protecting them from harm.

But I think the children already caught up in this might be in even more danger than they were previously.

The right people are the people bringing Rosa Parks into something she has nothing to do with. What I've seen is one judge made a Rosa Parks comment and the OP has done the same. She is equally to blame. In the original quote the OP said Every school counsellor who felt they were Rosa Parks, whispering secrets to vulnerable kids and damaging the parent-child relationship; Is there any evidence that school counsellors think they are Rosa Parks? Do share if you have any.

If the OP has an issue with what a judge said blame him not school counsellors.

OMFG - just seen how long this reply is! Sorry…

@MissScarletInTheBallroom I think, although many of the YP on current waitlists need therapy right now, the issue is that they were allowed to be groomed/radicalised/lied to in schools and on social media.

If this hadn’t happened, there wouldn't be all these kids languishing in a more seriously confused and distressed state - they would have had access to a grounded, impartial school counsellor, been able to talk to parents/family because they didn't see them as bigots/the enemy (again thanks to the above), and then probably 2/3 of them would have simply ‘grown out of it’ (to use the cliched and somewhat patronising phrase).

I think there needs to be a review of how ASD/ADHD kids/YA are supported, as there clearly needs to be an infrastructure in place that is not reliant on the NAS and which can support families to support their children as they navigate school and puberty. I remember contacting the GP to advise them of my DD’s diagnosis and then reeling in shock because we weren’t allocated a HV/key worker/social worker/IEP coordinator - or anything at all. We had a piece of paper and a recommendation to join the NAS!

As recently at 10 years ago there was little to no understanding that ‘girls’ even had autism spectrum conditions, so there is bugger all on line to help, and they do seem to disproportionately suffer during puberty and socially as they don’t easily understand what is expected of them in terms of gendered roles. My DD just couldn’t connect with or relate to ‘normal’ girls as she wasn’t sexually awakened, interested in make up/boys/clothes really, and found meshing in a ‘group’ situation of girls quite torturous. Of course she lost herself in SM (she was severely impacted by lockdown) and the school Deputy HT was a complete rainbow loon so identifying as trans suddenly gave DD a pass and made her ‘special’ enough that people befriended her (yep, some peers actually openly stated that they wanted a ‘gay best friend’ as it gave them social cache).

Short term these trans IDing kids need access to [proper, child-centred] therapy pronto, but long-term we need to look at the support given to ASD/ND and other children who are marginalised in school for whatever reason. We need to rethink our education system, we need to rethink the laws around and the use of SM and YP, and the requirement that students ‘need’ smart devices for school (every school has an interest free deal to ensure every child has one). We need to rethink how we parent children when more often than not YP have two working parents, we need to reassess the erosion of parental rights in any discussion at school/GPs/CAMHS/Social Services and the assumption that parents are more likely to be a danger/obstructive wrt to their kids than have their absolute best interests at heart. As a society, we just need to rethink. ‘Cos what we’re doing right now, just isn’t working.

If you wanted to share I think a lot of parents would be interested in how your parents dealt with the issue? I'm assuming your parents had a view and dealt with it in a way you found positive, obviously you might have come through despite them but either way I think lots of parents are unsure of how to handle the issue and it could be very informative.

Back in my day, long time ago, girls just got labelled as tomboys and no one took much notice, boys would get a harder time as being labelled a cissy was more of a stigma. I was always considered a tomboy, my name wasn't an issue as it could as easily be a boys name as a girls. I don't think anyone was worrying about pronouns back then. Do you think that approach would have been easier for you? Again obviously only if you want to share.

That's a wise post @BusyMummy001

I do hope that governments and institutions will be capable of the levels of reflection needed to address how we allowed something to profoundly harmful to the young to take hold in our institutions. But I'm not certain people are capable of it.
It's been noticeable the number of posters desperate to criticise the op for an unkind / harsh tone / choice of language while - yet again - ignoring the bloody elephant in the room. That children below the age of consent and young people have had their bodies / their future fertility / future relationships and sex lives wrecked by experimental drugs and surgery via the NHS.
I do hope this will lead to a quiet removal of Stonewall, Global Butterflies, GIRES, Gendered Intelligence, the paedophile scandal hit Mermaids and the numerous others trans lobby groups from being able to influence the NHS and schools. But I'm not sure.
For anyone interested in reading about how some of these groups managed to get so much inappropriate influence, the Times who have been exposing this issue for years, published this today: (share token so anyone can read it):

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dd694117-9c23-46ff-8974-be360680e5e4?shareToken=83d23eefe6ca6f47c3417e82c649d3eb

We as a family have lived through the teenage traumas with seriously depressed DCs including a suicide attempt.

We were 'fortunate' in that the suicide attempt resulted in an emergency CAMHS referral. DC saw a therapist and a psychiatrist and was prescribed antidepressants.

DCs are now in their 20s, much happier and mentally more resilient than they were.

I can see they are a product of their time and environment (as are we all). We are in a small WC town. A lot of the messages coming out of the school were: 'you can be anything you want to be'.

I don't think the 'you can be anything' message is completely helpful for teenagers. The reality is that you can't be anything. GCSEs are a big reality check.

For the teenagers who struggle there have always been organisations of dubious intent willing to take them in. In my day there were religious cults. These days, through SM, it is easier than ever to find a 'tribe'. Because this 'tribe' is on your phone it is far harder to hear dissenting voices.

I'm sorry to disappoint, but my parents didn't deal with the issue. They weren't approachable, and I believe played a big part in my gender confusion by dressing me exclusively in boys clothing and only having respect for typically male traits and achievements. I started questioning my gender at 5/6, and continued to feel uncertain till I was about 12. I told two friends about it when I was about 6. It was the start of the 90s, and no one was around to jump on what I'd said to them, if they even told anyone. I was a tomboy. No one cared.

From the age of 7, my father became steadily more abusive (as he lost his mind), and while I would return to my uncertainty sometimes, I was more concerned with basic survival than my gender. And then I started really liking boys and realised I liked my body.

It was only in my early twenties that it became clear to me that I had been unconsciously manipulated into rejecting my femininity and into seeing females as inferior. I hadn't even realised I thought that.

I think that as a victim of abuse, a traumatised outsider, and an incredibly stubborn child with total faith in my own ability to think logically and make good decisions without being swayed by outside influence, I would have been ripe for being sucked in by people telling me I should really trust myself and explore my uncertainty. I can imagine latching onto this thing that could help me stand out, take some control, and give me a clear identity. Even before my dad went off the deep end, if anyone had told me I was just a child who didn't know what I wanted, I could have explained in great detail how I felt about the idea of coming puberty and the physical changes that would bring. I would have been very convincing. It would have taken a lot of therapy and medical interrogation to disabuse me, and I'm not sure the NHS provides that level of investigation. And if it were today, I'd know what to say to get what I wanted because it would've been all around me. Although I suppose at 6 no one would have given me blockers. Although once you're in the system as having these issues... And if they'd got me at 10-12...?

And if instead they'd taken me seriously, as they would today, I'm pretty sure I would have lapped up the approval because adult approval and attention is what I desperately craved.

Who knows? Nothing happened. I've no idea really how I would have reacted to different approaches and in the end I'm known amongst friends as always having been sensible to the point of absurdity, but I'm guessing that those feelings in this climate could have led to bad decisions. Abuse victims with no one to talk to are vulnerable, and children especially are highly impressionable and good at assimilating ideas as their own.

I actually think that my mum would've handled it beautifully if I'd told her. Maybe I should ask her. I think she would have said something about hating bows and bras and make-up too and reminded me that one of her gifts to me is a fear of needles. I don't think she'd have dismissed my feelings, but she wouldn't have made a big deal of it. She already dressed me and had my hair cut like a boy, so I'm not sure it would have changed much. I doubt she'd ever have raised it again. But would she have been able to have that kind of response in today's world? It seems unlikely, and in today's world, I would have bucked against it.

And this is why there isn't really an article to write. Just a bunch of hypotheticals.

That sounds tough. It is a shame you didn't get to confide in your mum. I suppose in many ways my experience wasn't that different except I was definitely a girl and never quesioned that. I have an older sister and mum was told I was to be the last baby or she might die so I was supposed to be a boy, given my father's name which fortunately is fine for male or female and was a tomboy. Not sure if I was encouraged to fill the son gap or if I just was a tomboy. It was all unremarkable and fortunately no abuse and then like you I found boys and didn't want to be a tomboy anymore. That introduced a whole new set of problems.

Cass and her team are the experts in this investigation. There is no one on that editorial team who has more expertise in this space.

The cherry picking of data has been the tactic of choice to justify the use of unproven or downright dangerous treatments in previous medical scandals.

Yes I read their comments on the Sewell report, I had plenty of issues with that report- I failed to see the overwhelmingly middle class, white editorial board's follow on addressing racism and classism in medical professions. Funny that.

Black women continue to die in childbirth at a higher rate than white women, black patients continue to be diagnosed as having a mental health condition when they have physical conditions. My personal highlights include "black women don't feel pain in labour as much as white women do" and being told that endometriosis was only usually found in white women, being told "its probably depression" when seeking a gynae referral for long term and classic endometriosis symptoms.

So forgive me for being less trusting than you in the opinions of white MC professionals who think they know what is best for working class minority men and women.

You're arguing with people who were making the very point that they shouldn't have been bringing Rosa Parks into it. I don't know why you're now hell bent on continuing to argue with people who made the same point you did; I guess you find that easier than accepting that you misread something yesterday.