To think Black Out nights in theatre ARE important

[PenguinLord]

I know there was a theatre that did it last year and a thread about it- but there is a West End venue this year which will host two or three black out nights (where "all-black-identifying audiences" are invited) of the Slave Play. I had mixed feelings, but after having read a few articles on it, I actually agree with the concept- for the record I am very much white.

Spokesperson for the PM criticised black out nights saying "“The prime minister is a big supporter of the arts and he believes that the arts should be inclusive".

But let's face it, theatre experience is far from inclusive or accessible. Having 2 out of a few dozen nights will not really make a difference, nor excludes people who are not black to attend literally 80 if not more other performances. I was in theatre this week, and had a good look around. 98% of the audience were white. There were a few Asian people and 1 (one) black person- in the audience of around 300.

I suppose Id be far less likely to attend an event where I would stick out like a very sore thumb, is it really such a big deal to have two performances where people who dont usually feel theatre is an inclusive space can feel welcome, surrounded by people that belong to the same community?

In this sense I would define white as being perceived as white, and all those perceived as white benefit from white privilege.

‘White-passing’ demonstrates this - someone who looks Caucasian often faces fewer barriers and less racism than others with black or mixed race heritage.

@StormingNorman

How do you define being 'deemed as white'. Won't you just define people who for various reasons benefit from privilege as being deemed white? Do you also then have a concept of being deemed black or a poc?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

The use of the term Caucasian is outraged and actually brings in more complexity about how we categorise a rather arbitrary concept that of race.

You could define Spanish people as being the beneficiaries of white privilege as they conquered (along with Portugal) a lot of South America. The Spanish and Portuguese provided some of the original explorers and colonists.

The native people of South America you could argue would have been the suffering party of this 'white (?) privelge' but their descendent Hispanic communities maybe could be the disadvantaged of 'white privelege' in a role reversal.

Would it have been better to put academic effort into determining the factors that limited the social mobility of Americans of African descent rather than producing a theory that ties itself in knots trying to define a difference between white and non white.

We do not deem people black so why seem people white?

Sorry you’ve lost me at your last sentence?

@valensiwalensi

I suppose the general question is how you split people into white and non white for 'white privilege'.

who is deemed 'non white' and how do you make the distinction - skin tone?

@PenguinLord I was being dead serious. In a thread (that you started) that's entire premise is based on how the majority groups words and actions can have a major impact on the minority group's psychological safety, I'd have thought you would have picked your words more carefully. And when it was highlighted to you, you chose to respond snarkily instead of acknowledging it. I think that makes you a hypocrite.

@valensiwalensi

apologies for the typo - I meant to say Caucasian is an outraged racial concept

You keep saying ‘outraged’ — do you mean ‘outdated’?

Sorry to be specific you said we don’t deem people black?

what do you mean by that?

Nope. Segregating by race is divisive and wrong. It’s particularly difficult for mixed race families and also encourages racists, both black and white.

I’ve been to many events where being white I was the minority race, didn’t bother me at all - except when I was in Mugabe’s Zimbabwe during his persecution of white farmers and was in some danger.

One of the most welcoming events I’ve ever been to was a 99% black party thrown by an African organisation in the UK. Strangers there kept walking up to me and hugging me because they wanted less division by race, not more, and were glad I’d come.

I find it very odd that in 2024 England I can be excluded from a theatre on the basis of my skin colour, but apparently men can’t be excluded from women’s gym changing rooms anymore.

NO ONE IS BEING EXCLUDED.

@valensiwalensi

perhaps in terms of white privilege how is 'non white' defined - purely in terms of skin tone or ethnicity?

Where are you being excluded from the theatre? Who's being segregated?

In all your chat (we get it, youre not racist) and weirdly, throwing the trans debate into the mix as well, you seem to have lost sight of the fact that it's a polite request, not an exclusion.

You are massively overthinking this.

@StormingNorman

if you are to have a theory based on white privilege don't you have too have a way of deciding who is white or who is non white? If the theory bases privilege on this idea of being white surely it is helpful to define who is white and make sure the concept of privilege is securely with this group?

Does a dark skinned Spaniard from wealthy family with perhaps colonists ancestors a beneficiary of 'white privelege'. The ancestry says maybe but the skin tone says no.

I gave you my definition of what white is in terms of white privilege. It is how you are perceived by others.

People don’t wait for a DNA profile before making a judgement about somebody.

Here’s an example. I know two biracial siblings. Total coincidence as I met them at different places a couple of years apart. One has loosely curled Afro hair and black skin, albeit light. They are immediately identifiable as having black lineage. The other has straight brown hair, green eyes and olive skin. I didn’t know they were biracial until they asked how I knew their sibling.

One of those two would benefit from white privilege while the other would not. Same DNA - different levels of white privilege.

It’s not about being white but LOOKING white.

Another example. My grandmother is white but would routinely get racial abuse (the N and P words shouted at her in the street) in the summer because she tanned so dark. So while she was white, she lost some of her white privilege when other people perceived her to be of a different race.

They did a study as well where they sent out the same CV with the same qualifications and put names that are more commonly associated with white people , and names more commonly associated with other races on them.

I think it was somewhere in the region of being a third more likely to get an interview with a 'white sounding' name.

It's so deeply ingrained into our society its hardly surprising some don't see it, they don't want to open their eyes.

Because it’s about social class and culture.

Those ‘educated and morally superior’ don’t want to talk about either because discussing the former makes them uncomfortable and discussing the latter would be ‘judgey’.

Luckily we have people like Thomas Sowell and Coleman Hughes.

@StormingNorman

aren't you blurring things?

I think it's questionable whether you have some kind of inherent privilege based on people's perception of your skin colour. I think in general we have unfortunate unconscious bias towards like us but that may be due to a number of factors other than race e.g.gender, nationality and shared culture. I think it seems white privilege elevate s skin colour or perceived colour in the rankings of all the other factors that may influence human realtionshi ps

I think white privilege is a rather simplistic moniker to cover the complex nature of privilege and biases that occur between peoples. For instance do people from Eastern Europe carry the same amount of white privilege from those from the Western countries? There may be a relative privelege for those westerners due to coming from more economically strong countries and this privilege may be exhibited by those from Western Europe getting better more roles and opportunities in Western Europe than Eastern Europeans. We have had plenty of Eastern Europeans doing unskilled Labour in the UK and there are quite shocking instances of racism (or discrimination) against Poles for example. The concept of white privilege seems to dismiss power imbalances like this.

It seems to be the argument that those perceived as white have natural advantages in terms of society e.g. jobs etc. but could this be more about immigration status than skin colour or perception there of. Immigrants especially from poor countries seem to have a similar experience in terms of lack of privilege independent of skin colour. The poor Romainian possibly has the same level of racism and othering as a person of colour.

We then have to tackle his we see perceive the privilege of someone like James Cleverly, Public school education and Oxbridge who perhaps has had all the advantages of an English establishment education with the associated connections and opportunities for influence. How would someone like be perceived in terms of white privilege . Even though a person of colour he could be argued to benefit from 'white privilege' given his support from establishment institutions that have connections to the colonial era. I think there are particularly offensive slurs given to those poc who benefit from integration into establishment society with associated wealth and status.

I think if we want to talk about privilege in a more nuanced sense of would may be a good starting point to say that people who are descended from European colonising countries may have had some historical privilege due to status from Empire and perhaps accrued wealth within a demographic. The associated privilege would also be dependent on which wealthy Western European country they were in so for instance Italians would have more privilege in Italy than in the US (at least when first emigrating). A white person in Japan for instance could not use white privilege significantly as his skin tone does not confer benefits necessarily there.

I think the complexities of privilege, social mobility, racism, cultural discrimination and jingoism are too complex to be parcelled in a simple term like 'white privilege'.

As society moves in and we become more globalised the inherent privilege of being from having a certain skin colour will decrease quite naturally.

I don't think it's all black or white

White privilege? You must be joking. My ancestors were potato farmers and maids.

YOU might have experienced ‘white privilege’, but 90% of people in the UK (at least) are not descendants of slave owners. The joke in all of this is that it’s the 10% of people who are lecturing the rest of us and causing untold damage and division in the process.

I'm not white, so, no, I haven't.

There's absolutely no denying white privilege is real. There's plenty of research to back it up.

Great, and nor have I.

I always think that oppressed classes should have safe spaces away from their oppressors and people who object never actually want to go to these things they just don’t want other people to have them.

Privilege is real but simply taking a complex option such as this and assigning it to skin tone or perception of skin tone is simply unrealistic and potentially a little racist in itself.

If seems to me that the theory of white privilege allows you into the 'non white' category of you come from a currently poor demographic. For instance 'non store's in the US would definitely include Afro Americans, Native Americans and Hispanics recently immigrated from South America and Mexico. However if the non whites are from a particularly successful demographic for example SE Asia are these included in relevant research for 'white privilege'?

By selecting the demographics you place in the non white category you can skew any research to get and establish that 'white privilege ' is more significant than it is. You may find the privilege really is associated with socio economic status and it may be just that more people of certain ethnicities are in those brackets. Privilege then is more nuanced than simply noting the hue of skin.

That you're aware of. It's so ingrained into our society it's like asking a fish to see water.