China and our children. AIBU to be deeply concerned?

[Concerningalgorithms]

I read this article and am so concerned. So many of our kids are on TT.

https://nypost.com/2023/02/25/china-is-hurting-us-kids-with-tiktok-but-protecting-its-own/amp/

Basically, TT and other SM have the same effect on our brain as addictive substances such as heroine. Developers know this and create highly addictive (make use of our knowledge of the reward centre in our brain), apps/platforms/games that leave us with dopamine crashes when we can’t have it. So that tantrum or meltdown when we say ‘turn screens off now’ is partly, if not mostly, to do with that, is one example.

The article above says that China use different algorithms there for TT so it is helpful for children’s development. They are peddling addictive, concentration lowering crap to children around the world, but protecting their own children.

Why are we allowing this? Why are we not protecting our children too? The science is there.

And AIBU to think that we are at risk, as a country, of raising a generation that will be less well adapted and more vulnerable in the future to a hostile take over?

I think dressing this up as some sort of Beast from the East is ill judged and ill informed although I agree about the terrible effect on children of exposure to this kind of content.

Parents do have responsibility for their own children though. I went to the 18th birthday party of a friend’s daughter the other day, lots of friends turned up before 8 o’clock, and she had a great night. A couple of days earlier, a day after her actual birthday, I got a Facebook friend request from her. Turns out her mum didn’t let her have a Facebook account until she turned 18. She’s had a phone since starting secondary school and can message friends.

This girl isn’t a social outcast or a weirdo. She goes to her local comprehensive and has a boyfriend and friends. Her mum isn’t in tech or any teaching or safeguarding profession. She’s just a good mum, struggling on a low income who doesn’t take the easy road when it comes to her children. They are GREAT children too. They don’t hate her for it. They are all really close notwithstanding the usual teenage hormones and drama. I’m sure they’ll have wheedled for it at various times but their mum isn’t afraid to say no.

I’ve also seen the difference from one year to the next when other friends have given their children smartphones and a lot of access to them when they go to Secondary. Children who would sit at a table in a restaurant and happily chat are engrossed in their phones and if told to put them away, after ignoring waiting staff 3 times, they are visibly bored and sullen until the phone is back in hand again. Families with tight device rules just don’t seem to hit the same wall even though of course some of their teenagers go through the grunting, no eye contact stage. It’s really striking with families we only see once a year.

This is more complicated than just TikTok.
All social media is addictive and has issues that kids should be protected from. NYT has jumped on TikTok rather than say Instagram or Snapchat for political reasons when all of them provide addictive content that’s rotting brains.
I’d be interested in how many teens in China get around the 40 minute time limit by using a VPN or buying a second phone with the app installed without teen mode. There won’t be statistics but I suspect plenty of addicts too.
It’s not news that SM is addictive and it’s been around for decades. I suspect that households with addicted kids will often have parents who are the same and have copied their parents and ended up sucked in too. It’s one of many dangers to kids like vaping and drugs which needs parents to take responsibility because a government level approach isn’t going to work because it requires money and resources to support.

YANBU OP.

Trouble is it's a small part of a huge issue because we are all in thrall to technology thanks to capitalism without conscience.

Opting out is not an option because there's always "an app for that".

Honestly as a species, we're pretty fucked.

Then as a sociologist you should know that attempting to give credibility to an opinion that isn’t actually formed on anything is not ok.

there is masses of evidence that supports that things like tik tok are addictive and it’s not possible to regulate.

They will indeed learn that. And more. But they will need access to the internet to do so.

I think, to quote Trevor MacDonald about something entirely different (I can’t remember what..!), we’re sleepwalking into a social apartheid between those children who are taught appropriate tech / screen / social media boundaries + those who aren’t.

I don’t think people are sufficiently worried about the addictive nature of screens - I hate driving past bus stops in the morning and seeing crowds of teenagers silent, head down, glued to their phones rather than talking to each other.

I pontificate as I scroll mumsnet on a beautiful sunny spring morning….

I’m not sure that Chinese teenagers are any less addicted. But I worry for human connection hugely.

OP, I mean this as kindly and as helpfully as I can, but I think you need to take some care and thought around your framing of China and its plans for “world domination”, as you bluntly put it. It has very strong echoes of racist “yellow peril” tropes from yesteryear.

China also 'protects' them from news, health, anything relating to democracy, human rights, music and 'bad lifestyles'.

It isn’t new. Just like cigarettes, drugs, alcohol, vaping isn’t new. The question is what are we going to do to protect our children’s development and create a generation that are well equipped to face the challenges ahead.

I expect our Government to legislate to protect children who don’t have parents who will. And that is swathes. It’s normalised unhealthy behaviour. We legislate for other harmful and addictive things.

But....my opinion is formed on science? That's what I said. Just that I don't have proof (no-one does).

Look around the room at most adults and you'll see them with their noses pointed at their phones. If it has that effect on us, of course it's going to be like crack for kids.

How many toddlers have you seen have a meltdown in the middle of Tesco when a tablet is removed from them? That happens even if they're watching CBeebies!

This isn't news and it isn't just the Chinese doing it. Influencers know what they're doing and play all the tricks for clout.

You'd have to be living on Mars as a parent to not have heard horror stories about TikTok. Best to just keep kids off it.

Dealing with addicted adults will go a long way to dealing with the kids but nobody is going to stop that trend because it suits capitalism.

Everyone clutching their pearls about Tiktok has clearly never actually consumed content on Chinese social media. Douyin is not that hyped anymore, everyone is on XiaoHongShu (Little Red Book, similar to Instagram Reels). The content there, including that for children, is complete and utter garbage. It's usually chipmunk-sounding voiceovers played at 4x speed to make the content more fast paced and addictive. The subject matter are usually skits, tutorials or make-believe scenarios featuring sped up movement and staged scenes.

This style of editing is ubiquitous throughout Chinese social apps. Everything is sped up, squeaky voiceovers, extremely fast cuts and lots of text on screen. Even videos that purport to be educational are cringeworthy and unwatchable. The concept of not showing children on social media is non-existent so there is a plethora of kids being exploited for clicks. Common viral "educational" videos include small children being celebrated for how advanced they are. You see a two year old writing numbers perfectly, using chopsticks or cooking a complex meal in the kitchen. It's all very creepy. You must also imagine what goes on behind the scenes which force the kids to perform like that.

There really isn't a huge conspiracy by the Chinese government to save "good" content for their own people and terrible stuff for their overseas app. Everything is user-generated so it simply reflects prevalent cultural norms and media literacy. A lot of the content on Chinese apps are extremely fast-paced with slapstick or juvenile humour. It's nothing you'd want your child consuming either.

Why aren't parents taking more responsibility if they are so concerned? A sopciety dominated by legislating in "our best interests" is as dangerous as your alternative. Where do you stop "protecting" people? Lots of things are highly addictive, and not just apps or drugs - anything that gives us a "rush" can be addictive. But each and every one of these things are things that we choose or allow. Nor is it a matter of all or nothing. There can be such a thing as balance, informed choice and free will.

And if you think that China's desire for "world domination" is the biggest threat we face, then you may understand all about brain development (which I doubt anyway) but you understand little about the world. China is as much a capitalist society as any other - it is just currently much more successful at playing the game than so called capitalist countries. Our rules, and they are winning. Money and a stranglehold on economies is not a good thing for any one nation to monopolise (although I didn't notice as many complaints when it was, historically, "us" that held all the cards) but they aren't the ones throwing around rockets and military might at weaker neighbours. War, violence and collapsing social order are a much bigger threat than Tik Toc. Apps are not responsible for the Ukraine, Gaza, Afghanistan, the Sudan, Syria, Yemen, Haiti or any of the other ongoing major conflicts in the world. And I say that as someone who has no interest in Tik Toc or social media.

I don't think your approach to this concern has done you any favours here, OP. Yes, different activities, online or otherwise, affect neural pathways. That isn't news, nor is the fact that social media is geared towards keeping you on a particular site for as long as possible, so the site can harvest more information about you. That is literally their business plan. You only get to the potential solution - legislation - in your latest post. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise why legisliation is taking so long - money. To give a well worn example, tobacco was introduced in the UK in the 16th century. It's link to cancer was known for decades (if not longer) before it was finally banned indoors in 2007.

Technology itself isn't inheritantly bad. But it does need to be taught and used appropriately (see recent article which alludes to how it could be integrated well), which is where we are failing. Are we going to improve any time soon? No. It really isn't a priority, particularly given basic services are so sub-standard. As I see it, the crux of your complaint is why are we as a society failing to build our future? I don't have an answer to that, although I suspect it has a lot to do with the political system and obsession with short term plans to win elections rather than long term planning to build a society beneficial to all.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/mar/27/free-lunches-brain-breaks-and-happy-teachers-why-estonia-has-the-best-schools-in-europe

I didn’t say they were evil. But they are out to dominate the world. They have been up front about that. They may stick to economically but they have been flexing their military muscles regularly. Kind of a military thumbing if the nose - a ‘come and have a go if you think you’re hard enough’ kind of thing. Bugging buildings and mining data.

OP, I refer you to my previous post about racist “yellow peril” tropes!

Look at it another way - imagine this thread was about the USA, and then re-read your comment.

Still makes sense, doesn't it?

I actually don't mind the Chinese government doing all of that, because it distracts some of the worst elements of the US government (and vice-versa). When they stop distracting each other, you get...well, similar to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Putin was only able to do that because Trump managed to convince enough people that Putin was his bezzy mate, so nobody was watching while he was preparing the invasion.

As long as any of China, Russia and the US exist in their current militant forms, we need all three of them to carry on doing what they're doing so they don't bother the rest of us.

The 'teenage mode' is only for under 14s. I didn't think kids could make SM accounts under 13 anyway?

It sounds like the 'teenage mode' is just a China specific propaganda mode?

I'm all for things to protect children. But even if we banned SM for under 16s it comes down to what the parent will allow because plenty of parents sign up to SM for their DC.

My 17yo has never really been interested in SM but has an IG account. I've allowed my 12 yo to have SnapChat and got it locked down to friends only.

Yes, or fast food. I don't want to live in a nanny state

There’s a simple solution - dont buy your DCs any tech, turn off the WiFi and be a responsible parent!

The Chinese government are actively mining our data and have bugged buildings. They are looking to dominate and their human rights abuses are clear. I will be critical of them. Just as I’m critical of our own Government and other nations. What I am concerned about is that whilst they are protecting their children we are leaving ours to look of the draw in terms of whether they have parents who understand the risks.

But lots parents don’t understand the risks.