Torn on this. Autistic little lad in restaurant.

[EggsBenedick]

Hi all,

I firstly want to make clear that I am not wanting this to be a bunfight or an ableist type of thread. I'm genuinely interested to hear people's views on this, as the family in question have asked to put in a complaint to the restaurant along with them.

We were eating an all you can eat type place, mostly Indian / Bangladeshi cuisine. I've added this as this may be relevant from a culture perspective.

It's a nice place, not somewhere too posh but not your run of the mill everything you can eat for a tenna place. Was quite busy in there too.

Seated next to us was a family of 3, with a little lad about aged 8 or 9. After he came back with his plate of food he took his jumper and T shirt off. People were looking over but the parents didnt seem bothered by it.

A member of staff came over and asked the parents if the boy could put his top back on. The member of staff was pretty polite initially. The parents refused to ask the boy to put his top back on. The staff member then went to get another member of staff, who came over and said he just put his top back on during the meal or they would have to leave. The mum then said to the waiter 'if we put his top on he will just scream the place down and ruin everything for everyone'. And explained that the child is autistic.

The parents made no effort to put the top back on the boy.
The staff member said to the family that they would have to eat quickly and leave. By this point the mother was visibly upset and indirectly spoke to us saying 'I wish my son could just be accepted.'

The boy was completely topless in the middle of the restaurant with lots of other diners around.
They had a few mouthfuls and came over to our table and asked if we would leave a Google review complaining about their time at the restaurant and how they aren't inclusive or family friendly.

AIBU to be torn in this? I'm genuinely intrigued to hear people's opinions on this. I could see how difficult it was for the mum. But on one hand I think the parents should've at least tried to put the T shirt on the child as it's not appropriate for a child of that age to be topless in a restaurant. But, the child shouldn't be confined to their home to eat. I would be concerned about strangers / men looking at my semi - naked child most of all.

I don't think I am going to do a review as I can see it from the restaurants POV also. I said to the mum that I was sorry she had such a stressful time. She clearly needed support. The dad didn't say or do a lot which was most helpful!

Completely agree, parents are trying to do things now, it isn’t perfect situation but equally it could be a lot worse. If they wait until they are 100% sure he’ll behave perfectly and not do anything that might upset social norms probably never go out. Sometimes I think autistic kids are actually held to higher standards than nt kids, people on the whole tend to watch their autistic kids like hawks as they know things can go from calm to carnage in a short space of time given the wrong circumstances. Maybe I frequent the wrong places but I’ve certainly seen more nt kids running round pubs or restaurants getting in the way and disturbing other people while their parents sit without a care in the world because it’s ‘family friendly’

How do you cope on the beach and at swimming pools?

How do you cope on the beach and at swimming pools?

Eating and swimming are different activities.

Are you also assuming "other groups" only includes NT/non disabled people?

@PatheticDistraction I have private messaged you. I hope that's ok.

It's not remotely comparative though is it? You don't expect beach balls and water guns in a restaurant!
An expectation of suitable dress to eat out is just a reflection on how you're expected to behave.

if you had a son would you allow him to go to topless on a beach?

far more likely a sexual predator would head to the beach rather than an indian restaurant don’t you agree?

@preview81

I have now said multiple times that it's vanishingly rare that a predator would be in a restaurant. I don't know why this keeps getting bought up.

I don't have a son, so I don't need to think about them going topless at a beach.
Again, I know my issues are irrational and I am in therapy working on this.

Can we please all stop with this now. I have explained why I have the irrational fear, that I am working on it, and I know it's vanishingly rare. I knew all of this before I posted this thread. The point of this thread is not about what i choose to dress my child in and where I take her. She doesn't miss out on any activities like swimming or beach days. I have gone over this multiple times now.

"Are you also assuming "other groups" only includes NT/non disabled people?"

No
I am saying that one group is not automatically more important than another. The quote was staying that one group was automatically more important than another.

Why would I be? She is not naked, she would be wearing a swimming costume or sunsuit, depending on the weather.

I have gone over this multiple times.

So much sadness in your post. We call ourselves an inclusive society, and I do think things have moved in the right direction, but clearly we still have a long way to go. I’m so sorry you find yourself isolated.🌷

And with Autism there cannot be any ‘expectation’ of what is regarded as ‘normal social behaviour’ because the condition affects cognitive function - the degree to which it’s affected dictates how much the person will be able to self regulate. If you know anything about Autism you will be aware of this, so your comment is really inappropriate.

@Morph22010 , I don't know , it's complicated and I'm hardly an expert.

Generally, I feel people have higher standards from children period, and sometimes their simple existence is seen as offensive/disruptive. Then this puts parents of ND children under even more pressure. They end up either looking like they aren't doing anything or being helicopter parents. In the wrong either way.

However,(and I probably sound like a dick here) I think sometimes people(including family) do assume the worst about ND children and as a result have low expectations (either academically or socially)of them , which isn't good either and tends to end up in confirmation bias.

I honestly don't know what the answer is, especially since it's such a hard balance to find.

How do you know the kids running around pubs and restaurants are all NT ? Have you asked ? Or do you think NT is just an excuse for bad behaviour ?

Yeah, disabled people's rights are out of control and impinging on the rights of non-disabled people.😂

Non-disabled people are going to need to learn to play nicely, take turns getting what they want, and not defend their privilege to maintain everything to be how they THEY like it, by excluding disabled people.

There is absolutely no point debating with you because you are seriously just twisting everyone’s words around to suit your narrative.

You don't like your privilege being called out.

I knew someone was going to say this I should have put a bet on!! Obviously I don’t know that they are all nt, obviously there are probably some feckless parents of autistic kids who allow them to run round restaurants as well, but on the whole parents of autistic children I know are more likely to be the helicopter parent type as they know how wrong things can go if they take their eye off the ball and the anxiety over that means they can’t relax anyway if they don’t know what their child is doing and where they are.

The child wasn’t doing anyone any harm. The most likely reason he took his top off was because of sensory overload due to the environment - it’s a coping mechanism. Considering certain situations as unable to make the necessary accommodations will result in more and more isolation, as described by posters here who have first hand experience of caring for a ND child. If diners can’t mind their own business and let a family deal with a difficult situation in their own way so they can enjoy a meal with their disabled child, then I don’t know what this country is coming to.

I was speaking in general terms, not exclusively about any group, and making the point that noise and inappropriate dress are likely to be an issue in any restaurant regardless of the whys and wherefores - it's an indisputable fact regardless of your individual outlook. And it goes beyond simple tolerance, there are practical considerations too as has been noted.

It's interesting that the replies I've had from those advocating tolerance have been very intolerant replies!

🙄

I’m also white and male, just in case you want to call out more privileges while you’re at it.

Train them out of it? Autistic people aren't performing seals.

My 4 year old Ds is ND and has to get completely naked to take a poo. I always worry when we go out "is this the day he'll have an emergency and have to use the public loo and someone will walk in the restroom seeing me holding a child's outfit😂 It hasn't happened yet but I'm on high alert so it doesn't! Aside from the hygiene issue it's just not ok for me to have my child naked in a public restroom, even in a stall. I have to be ready to rush home at a moments notice. I guess my point is we are all doing our best with what we're given. If you're upset by something a SEN child does, believe me the mother is more upset and is trying her best to not disturb anyones peace and enjoyment. The shirt wouldn't have bothered me. Now if he started to drop his pants...well it's time to go.

But we’re not speaking in general terms are we ? We’re talking about Autism, which is why I was making the point that where this is concerned, there can be no expectation of adherence to ‘normal’ social rules - that depends on how much cognitive function has been affected by the condition. I’m advocating tolerance of people with these conditions because by and large, unless people have experience of these conditions, they have no idea what’s involved and interpret behaviour exhibited as ‘bad’ and something as easily corrected as with an NT child.

What is an indisputable fact is that laws exist to protect the rights of those with disability, to ensure a level playing field as far as possible, and public services can’t hide behind ‘practical considerations’ as a way of avoiding the responsibility to act legally - otherwise we’re right back in the days when wheelchair users were thrown out of cinemas because of ‘the fire risk’.

I think this is the key point and where it gets complicated.

ds is exceptionally noice sensitive so we plan trips around when things are likely to be quite, pick places to eat with smaller dining areas or booths etc. If we go to a museum we have to get there for opening time before it gets too busy.

if places get too noisy we have to leave. If someone who due to their disability is loud is there we would still need to leave. Sadly there is no way those two distinct presentations of disability can be in the same room.

a lot of places now are much better at catering for those with additional needs but it’s close on impossible for everyone to be catered for.

I think this is a good point, but unfortunately there are still those establishments who will quote chapter and verse on ‘health and safety’ as a way to avoid responsibilities which speak to equality and inclusivity.